Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

[goldenlight]

I'm about out of ultimate polish. I'm interested in trying something with less polishing oils.
Is there a learning curve with using m205?
Are there any consequences using this product over the long term?

I will be using a dual action polisher

[Christopher.Brown]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

UP is a derivative of 205.

205 is definitely more aggressive, therefore i would say there is a bit of a learning curve... as with any new product when you come from something you are so accustomed to. That being said, their formulation isnt THAT far off so you should be fine...

I find that you can lean on UP a lot more than 205 and be ok, whereas with 205 you can get some serious correction [coupled with the right pad]. Bottom line its got more bite from 205 but you can counteract that with less pressure..

My personal opinion is that 205 is much more versatile and with a little patience and practice you will learn to love it on you DA.

So don't be shy. And as far as being harmful, no .. as long as you're polishing at a normal interval.. not once a month or so.. youll be fine

have fun and enjoy it in the New Year

[Kbuzbee]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

I'm about out of ultimate polish. I'm interested in trying something with less polishing oils.

May I ask "why?" I've use UP a couple times. All by hand. For Christmas my wife gave me a G110V2 and I'm looking forward to using it with UC and UP when the weather breaks. So your post caught my eye. What do you dislike about polishing oils?

just trying to learn.

Ken

[Daniel Kinder]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

I'm about out of ultimate polish. I'm interested in trying something with less polishing oils.
Is there a learning curve with using m205?
Are there any consequences using this product over the long term?

I will be using a dual action polisher

Hey golden

Ultimate polish has a little more polishing oils then M205 but then again M205 offers SMAT and it is a cleaner/polish, and with that said you just open a door of fantastic opportunities! Now your also using a DA so you also have cutting pads? polishing pads & finishing pads, Do you realize how many different ways you can use just that one product with just 3 pads and a DA while being able to adjust speeds, pressures and arm speed not to mention that if you really needed more cutting power for an area with more of a problem then your 5.5'' or 6'' cutting pad can do now with the 4'' pads (offers more cutting then a 5.5''/6'' pad can, because of size and speed being turned) you just added more options with this one amazing product!

Years ago my goto product was M80, a cleaner/polish and had DAT which was a very great product with it's cleaning ability and me as well as thousands of MOL members kept plenty on hand and I think this was our ''HOLY GRAIL'' of cleaner/polishes! Now discontiued but in it's place and along with technology comes SMAT and they give cleaner/polishes a higher level of ability and in turn bunch better then M80 for todays clear coat finishes.

M205 was designed as a finishing polish and to be used in a step after M105 and to remove light hologramming when using a wool pad with a rotary, but it has been trickled down if you will and it does a remarkable job as well while using DA and can have it's own steps with the different foam pads.

As for as a learning curve, Ya they can be a small amount until you get your technique down for how your going to be applying it. Are you going to be using it for light paint correction in which I would apply just a tad more then I would regularly for working in a little longer then say to just use as a cleaner to do a 2 or 3 month detail on my paint and then you got differrent speeds again for a light paint correction or just a quick cleaning and then there the pads? But in all it's not something that is trying to learn a new process just finding your technique with.

Consequences over a long term? Yes, your going to love it!!! If your just a guy that has a couple products to use then this will be your ''HOLY GRAIL'' of products and will keep an extra bottle ready on hand to be on call so you don't panic when you get low.

Now if your like me and a bunch of OCD MOL members and have to now the cutting scale of M205 here's what I know. On the cut scale M105 is of curse a ''12'' now M80 and M205 both a cut scale of ''4'' and the only difference to ME! is both are cleaner/polishes with M80 having DAT while M205 has the new SMAT. M80 was better for single stage paints while M205 is great for clear coat.

Found this about 3 years ago and helps show a prespective on use and Michael stoops did one fantastic job on this write up. Hope I've help and to clear some things out.

There is a lot of discussion about how aggressive one product is compared to another, often between products that aren't even designed to do quite the same task. Many of you have seen the cut scale shown on the side of most Mirror Glaze products but you may not be clear on just what they mean.

On the bottle of M105 Ultra Cut Compound you can see that the arrow goes all the way to the top - that's a 12 on the cut scale. But the M205 Ultra Finishing Polish and M80 Speed Glaze only register a 4 on the scale. Obviously then, M105 provides more cut than either M205 or M80.

But what does that "12" or "4", or any other number, really mean? Will they always provide that much cut? Isn't a "12" way too much cut when all I want to do is remove some light swirls? Should I use maybe something that registers an "8" or "6" instead?

You may have noticed that we do not provide a cut scale on our consumer products, and that is simply because there are just too many variables when dealing with the average consumer. And variables are what this article is all about.

* NOTE: the above scale is not intended to be a precise quantitative indicator of changes in cut but rather simply of visual indicator that a change in cut exists. How much more or less cut any given product can achieve is dictated by a very wide range of variables.

Looking at the chart shown above, we see that the "Total Cut" is greater when a product is applied by rotary buffer than it is when applied by hand, and that G110 (D/A polisher) "Total Cut" is somewhere in between the two. You can also see that, for example, M105 always has more cut than M205 when used the same way. Not surprising since, as has been pointed out, M105 is a "12" while M205 is a "4". But even that doesn't tell the whole story.

The key here is that phrase "when used the same way". Let's just look at polishing with a G110 using M205, but with two different processes.

Here you can see that Process 1 pairs M205 with the less aggressive pad, it's run at a less aggressive speed, and less aggressive pressure is being used than withProcess 2. The net result is that Process 1 will provide less cut overall than Process 2, even though the same M205 is being used. It is the combination of variables that determines "Total Cut".

Some of the variables can have a sizable impact on total cut. When working with a rotary buffer if you move from a W8207 Soft Buff 2.0 Polishing Pad to a W5000 Double Side Wool pad, without changing machine speed or liquid, you will get a a huge jump up in total cut. The ONLY thing you changed is the pad. Or keep the liquid, the pad and the pressure the same, but change the speed of the rotary from 900 rpm to 1800 rpm and you'll get a sizable jump in total cut too. And all you did was run the machine at a higher speed. The G110 will return a similar change in total cut when doing the same experiment - same liquid, same pad, different speed - but the total cut will still be lower than that of the rotary buffer. That's because the machine has become a variable too, and a sizable one at that.

How extremely can you alter total cut when taking many variables into account? Try using M105 (cut rating of 12, remember) on a G110/W9207 Soft Buff 2.0 Finishing Pad/Speed 3/5lbs pressure and compare the total cut to M80 (cut rating of just 4) on a rotary/W5000 Double Sided Wool Pad/1800 rpm/5lbs pressure. Total cut on the M80 under these circumstances will be greater than the M105 combination cited above. (NOTE: you would probably never run M80 in this configuration - in fact, it isn't officially recommended by Meguiar's and is described here for illustration purposes ONLY)

At the risk of making this even more complicated, let's take a quick look at pad size when machine polishing. The increasing popularity of 4" foam pads has brought about a major variable. Sure, they make it easy to machine polish in smaller, tighter areas but they also alter the total cut. On a rotary buffer a smaller pad actually provides less cut (assuming similar foam construction, speed and pressure) because the speed at the outer diameter is lower than with a larger pad. We've already established that with a rotary buffer more speed equals more cut, so this slower speed at the outer edge of the pad falls right into that equation. On a D/A polisher the opposite effect results - a smaller pad gives more cut (again assuming similar foam construction, speed and pressure) because the energy is concentrated in a smaller area. The prevailing notion that you can not burn through or otherwise damage your paint when using a D/A needs to be reconsidered when using small pads. We've seen people damage paint while using a 4" cutting pad on a D/A running at maximum speed with a strong compound. When you compare that combination to a standard 6" or 7" pad with a mild paint cleaner used on speed 5, the increase in total cut is quite dramatic. It wasn't very long ago that this combination of small pad/high speed/aggressive compound was quite rare, but it's becoming more and more common place. And if you aren't thinking about how your changes effect total cut, you could be in for a surprise.

Probably nowhere is the concept of variables dictating total cut more fully experienced than when using M86 So1o Cut & Polish Cream. M86 was developed specifically for use on fresh paint, primarily in a body shop environment, and is truly part of a "system". The system is comprised of a single liquid and four different pads; a heavy wool cutting pad, light wool cutting pad, foam polishing pad and foam finishing pad. The idea is to use the liquid with one of the wool cutting pads to eliminate sanding marks, an initial cutting step done at fairly high speed - something on the order of 1500 to 1800 rpm. You would then follow with the foam finishing pad to remove any holograms or light marring, and then finish off with the foam finishing pad at a speed as low as perhaps 900 rpm to obtain a flawless finish. The very same liquid used to pull out sanding marks will also provide a flawless, highly reflective finish? Because of the variables involved and their impact on total cut, yes.

So next time your goal is to remove defects from the paint, consider not only which paint cleaner or compound you'll be using, but how you'll be using it. You choice of machine, speed, pad construction, pad size and pressure will all impact how much cut you'll get out of the liquid.

One last thought - just because a certain combination of the above variables worked on your friend's or neighbor's car does not guarantee the same result on your car because, you guessed it, the paint itself is a variable! And you wonder why this is often referred to as "the art of paint polishing"!

Michael Stoops
Internet Technical Specialist | Meguiar's Inc.
(800) 854-8073 xt 3875
mstoops@meguiars.com

Remember, this hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need therapy.

Please post technical questions directly to the forum rather than emailing or PM-ing me. You will get a faster response on the forum, and your question could help someone else, too!

[goldenlight]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

May I ask "why?" I've use UP a couple times. All by hand. For Christmas my wife gave me a G110V2 and I'm looking forward to using it with UC and UP when the weather breaks. So your post caught my eye. What do you dislike about polishing oils?

just trying to learn.

Ken

I want the option of using different waxes. Some waxes just don't like the Ult polish. paired with Ult LIquid Wax. Its a Win Win.

MOre then likely I will alternate.. It takes me a little over a yr to use Ult polish up and thats using on 4 cars 3 times a yr.. Can't imagine how long a 32 oz bottle will last. I might look at buying the 8oz bottle just to try it out.

[Daniel Kinder]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

Guys I've been searching and studing differences on applying DAT and SMAT products, and I too have been using a couple new products wrong and now explains why on my test/review on the White Wax why I didn't feel comfortable and didn't like how it was being layed with the 2 applications I applied on my test hood. And after the 2nd application I turned my DA on and cleaned my pad on the fly and then just applied 4 small dots on my 3rd and 4th application and that's when the White Wax was able to preform and start to work.

Also run across and thread about a painter using M105 & M205 for the first time and was having all kinds of trouble, I read all 3 pages and post that everyone was trying to help out and fiqure out why this guy was having such a problem with M105 that wouldn't remove 2000 grit sand scratches. Every option and reasonable valuation of why M105 wasn't able to do what it was designed to do and do easily.

I did find a reason for my experience with SMAT and maybe the painters problem to, because nowhere in the 3 pages did I see any remark about how much product this gentleman applied! And I along with some of you have walked into body shops and detail shops and seen a detailer with splatter all over the place using WAY!!! to much product. Now in a thread I seen that Kevin brown wrote on Pad Priming he mentioned that M105, M205, M86, D151, SwirlX, ScratchX and Ulitimate Compound all use abrasives that are uniform & non-diminishing.(SMAT) While most products that uses abrasives are very different in the fact that they break down. And products that contains SMAT with their non diminishing abrasives rely on the lubricant. So if to much is applied to the pad then the cut will be reduced becuase the abrasive is floating around in the lubricant. (and the reason for my 1st two applications with the White Wax)

And The best way to first start using the non diminishing (SMAT) with a fresh pad is to prime it. And prime by just apply to your pad spread it with your finger and rub it in. Just rub it in to get even coverage over entire surface of your pad.

I'm glad I went searching around for the differences between the two abrasive in our favorite cleaners and compounds, it sure helps me in knowing that I can't use the new cleaners/compounds like my old favoties. And probably why some may have also with using the new SMAT. Hope I've helped some of the new members as well as some of the older guys like myself, learn about your new products and what's in them or get left behind

Thanks Kevin Brown & Michael Stoops for all your informative articles and takin the time to help us and ME learn how to use these great new products and the differences between them!

[The Guz]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

May I ask "why?" I've use UP a couple times. All by hand. For Christmas my wife gave me a G110V2 and I'm looking forward to using it with UC and UP when the weather breaks. So your post caught my eye. What do you dislike about polishing oils?

just trying to learn.

Ken

UC and UP are great products and work well. They are derived from M105 and M205. M205 offers more correction ability than UP and is a bit more versatile depending on what foam pad is used. If you are just maintaining your personal cars then I would stick with UC and UP. Theg can get the job done just as good. They are also good products to start off with.

[Daniel Kinder]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

Also guys still studying everything I can and I forgot one of the best reviews of M205, read this!

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?31555-*NEW*-Meguiar-s-M205-Ultra-Finishing-Polish-Review!!!!

[The Guz]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

I like both products and I would recommend to have both. For harder clears M205 works wonders.

[Kbuzbee]

Re: Thinking about trying M205 instead of ultimate polish

I want the option of using different waxes. Some waxes just don't like the Ult polish. paired with Ult LIquid Wax. Its a Win Win.

Ah, makes sense, thanks!

If you are just maintaining your personal cars then I would stick with UC and UP.

That's my scenario and exactly what I did last year, followed with Ultimate Liquid Wax, and plan to continue to do going forward with the G110V2. Appreciate the confirmation.

I love the Ultimate line!

Ken