Using 105 and 205 with the PC

[00GREENMACHINE]

Guys I need some tips on how to get out the swirls on my 08 bmw x3. I have been told its got a soft clear. But I have tried and tried other products and cant get them all out. I just purchased a new bottle of the 105 and 205. I have 2 white, and a orange LC 6" pad. I also have a white and yellow 4: spot buff pad. I am looking for any help.;

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

What other products have you used, and what are you seeing after using them? Very mild products used on hard paint will leave the paint looking virtually identical to when you started because they simply aren't aggressive enough to do anything. Very aggressive products used on very soft or delicate paint will often remove the original defects but leave the paint looking far from optimum since they can haze it badly, or even inflict their own set of swirls.

Just because someone told you that your car has soft paint doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Have they worked on your car? If not, they really can't say with absolute certainty if the paint is hard, soft or otherwise. We've seen BMWs with soft paint, and others with crazy hard paint.

Let's start you out with this:

Select an area on the hood about 2' x 2' in size and concentrate on that for your test spot. Use one of your white pads to start, and apply M105 in this area using moderate pressure on the pad, keeping it flat so that it continues to rotate. Set the tool to speed 5 and move it slowly over the paint in overlapping strokes, covering this 2' x 2' area fully at least a couple of times. Don't let the product go completely dry on you though. Wipe off the residue and re-evalute this area in strong light. Compare it to the untreated areas; are the swirls gone, or at least diminished in appearance? If so, then you're on the right track. If not, then you may need to refine your process or maybe step up to the orange pad if you see zero improvement. Does the finish look totally different, as in the swirls are gone but the paint lacks clarity and depth? If so, then you may be going at more aggressively than you need to and a less aggressive product is needed. Or, if only slightly hazed, go back over the area with M205 on a finishing pad (or maybe even another white pad) and see if that clears things up.

You may find that you need to experiment a bit in order to come up with a proper plan of attack. But once you dial it in through a small series of test spots, you'll have a process that should work equally throughout the car.

[00GREENMACHINE]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

man, im about ready to throw in the towel. I did the pasangers door last night twice with 105 on a 4" yellow spot buff pad and there is still scratches in the panal. I panals on my x3 are not very big and I cant get into all areas. Im not saying it doesnot look better but.. Is there a more aggressive pad I can use? I just cant believe the 105 is not getting the paint into prestine condition to polish and seal.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

Without actually getting our hands on your car ourselves, it's a bit difficult to say whether the paint is hard, soft or otherwise. We've experienced BMWs with paint on both sides of that coin so it really could be anything.

What exactly are you seeing when working on the paint, comparing a just worked on area with an area you haven't touched at all?

Do the swirls appear to be the same, just slightly reduced in quantity? If the before and after areas look virtually identical other than a slight reduction in swirl count then we're inclined to say you've got very hard paint. Even with the very aggressive process you're using it could be hard enough to challenge the combination of liquid, pad and tool. And the biggest limiting factor here is going to be the tool. A D/A has limits, and sometimes a rotary is needed to correct a specific paint when the defects reach a certain level.

****** on the flip side ******

Do the before and after areas appear very different from one another? That is, do the defects seem to be different on the after side? Not just reduced in quantity, but actually different somehow (maybe smaller swirls that are still present throughout the finish, or just extremely hazy and dull looking)? If so then you could actually have very soft paint and the process you're using is just waaaay too aggressive for it. Soft paint can be very delicate and sometimes all it needs is something like M205 or even D151 to remove everything. We've seen too many cases of people getting frustrated because they can't remove all the defects from their paint even though they keep getting more and more aggressive. In the case of really soft paint this increase in aggressiveness only makes things worse and gets you further from your goal. We've actually had people look at us like we're crazy when we recommend stepping down to a less aggressive product, only to be shocked when it actually works.

Again, without having our own hands on this car but just going from your rather brief description, it's hard to say for sure one way or the other. But if you've been told that this car has soft paint, and if whomever told you that is right, then you may simply be going at with far more punch than you need.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

Have you marked the back of your backing plate with a black line from a Sharpie Marker and then watched to make sure the pad is rotating under pressure?

The only time a PC is going to remove any substantial amount of swirls is when the pad is rotating under pressure.

6" LC pads are actually 6.5" pads and they are fairly thick, this makes it harder for any DA Polisher to keep them rotating under pressure so the black mark will be a visible sign you can easily monitor.

If you have a first generation PC then it's going to be even more difficult to keep a pad rotating as compared to the new second generation PC's and also the new G110v2 DA Polishers.

I wrote this back in 2007 and it's still just as accurate today...

Tips & Techniques for using the G110, G100, G220 and the PC Dual Action Polisher
(These are all similar tools)

After teaching hundreds of classes here at Meguiar's, there are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.




Here's a list of the most common problems

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
2. Move the polisher too fast over the surface.
3. Too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
4. Too little pressure on the head of the unit.
5. Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating.
6. Not keeping the pad flat while working your product.
7. Too much product, too little product.
8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
2. For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
3. When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
4. For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
5. Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
6. Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
7. Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
8. Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video camera

The first 4 are the most common.

[00GREENMACHINE]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

The paint looks better than before but its like I am not getting the fast results I want. I went over the area of the door I actually only did half. I went right to left and up and down over the entire half of the door 2-3 times. Take in mind I did use a yellow 4" buff pad so dont think pad rotation it the problem. I am getting ready to purchase some orange cyclo pads to try. I used 3 to spread the product on the car. I used 5 to buff it out and even 6 on a part or two. I need to post a pic maybe that would help. I just knew the 105 was going to fix it. I did not use the 205 because from what I saw I did not see hardly any bad reflections. I did follow up with PWC blue. I do have a 1st gen pc its about 4-5 years old. I do not use the handle on the side and I basically hold it by the head.

[greg0303]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

I also have 2008 Jet Black BMW X3. The paint is really soft. I can easily inflict swirls when using UQD with microfiber towel if I don't lubricate the finish enough or don't use car duster before detailer.
Here's my advise: step down to Ultimate Compound on DA and try it at speed 4-5. In my case I corrected several serious defects with UC. Follow with your favorite polish/ glaze as it's gonna benefit you on black paint. I usually use Show Car Glaze or New Car Glaze.
I personally think that M105 works the best with rotary buffers. UC seems to be just perfect for DA polishers.
Good luck !!!

[00GREENMACHINE]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

^^ unless my pc is broken ( which it shoud not be, I only use it on my personal cars) my bmw has hard paint. I just orderedf some yellow and bluie pads from cyclo. I just heard they were the best. PLus 4 for about 16 bucks were right. I might try the Meguairs UC also.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

I have only detailed 2 BMW's. So by no means am I a expert. What I have found out on both of them was this. After doing test spots. I had the greatest success with #80.

Just throwing this out for consideration.

[greg0303]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

^^ unless my pc is broken ( which it shoud not be, I only use it on my personal cars) my bmw has hard paint. I just orderedf some yellow and bluie pads from cyclo. I just heard they were the best. PLus 4 for about 16 bucks were right. I might try the Meguairs UC also.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35015

[jaymz]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

I do have a 1st gen pc its about 4-5 years old. I do not use the handle on the side and I basically hold it by the head.

I also had a 1st gen PC and just recently received a new Griot's 6" DA. The difference in power is amazing and it works so much better and faster with #105, it's like night and day.

Jim

[michael5155]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but I didn't want to start a new one because the subject of this one is closely related to my situation.

I just bought a black 2008 Infiniti G35 with the typical swirls from two years of improper cleaning. On my G35 forum there are a lot of people who use the 105/205 combination to eliminate swirls. I owned a Porter Cable buffer and various pads from a previous car, so I thought the 105/205 process would be the answer.

I cleaned the car as suggested by the forum (two buckets, clay bar, etc.) and started with 105 and an orange pad. The scuff I was working on disappeared! Then I went over it with 205 and a black pad. I then moved to another part of the car where common swirls were present. I used the same technique. Thinking I was done, I moved the car into direct sunlight and almost passed out! There were even more swirls in both places. The new swirls were tighter in pattern and much thinner than the original swirls. There was also a slight hazing.

Yikes! What did I do wrong? Did I do irreparable damage? Can (and how do) I fix it?

Thanks!
Michael

[greg0303]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

Michael,
I assume you did everything correctly: you didn't work in direct sunlight, your car was dry and cold to touch, your polishing pads were clean and you didn't get crazy applying too much pressure to your machine.
I think your paint is just soft. Here's a tricky part: we start detailing, let's say with Ultimate Compound, and then we inspect our car to discover that we didn't reach our goals. What would most people do after? They would reach for a more aggressive solution: either more aggressive compound or more aggressive pad or both. Sometimes you actually have to go backwards and use less aggressive product. In your case I would try SwirlX on polishing pad with speed 4-5 and light pressure. But do a test spot first not entire car. If you're happy continue if not maybe try M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. On extremely soft paint sometimes something as gently as Cleaner Wax is just enough.
I recommend Xenon light for paint inspections. You'll see more with it.
Therefore it's so important to do a test spot first because until you physically start working on that paint you don't know what type of enemy/ friend you face.
I hope it helps.

[michael5155]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

Michael,
I assume you did everything correctly: you didn't work in direct sunlight, your car was dry and cold to touch, your polishing pads were clean and you didn't get crazy applying too much pressure to your machine.
I think your paint is just soft. Here's a tricky part: we start detailing, let's say with Ultimate Compound, and then we inspect our car to discover that we didn't reach our goals. What would most people do after? They would reach for a more aggressive solution: either more aggressive compound or more aggressive pad or both. Sometimes you actually have to go backwards and use less aggressive product. In your case I would try SwirlX on polishing pad with speed 4-5 and light pressure. But do a test spot first not entire car. If you're happy continue if not maybe try M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. On extremely soft paint sometimes something as gently as Cleaner Wax is just enough.
I recommend Xenon light for paint inspections. You'll see more with it.
Therefore it's so important to do a test spot first because until you physically start working on that paint you don't know what type of enemy/ friend you face.
I hope it helps.

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the response. I worked in the shade, then moved into the sun to see if I could detect any swirls. I called Meguiars and explained the situation to them. They felt I may not be working the area long enough which in turn doesn't let the abrasive particles fully dissolve. Seems to make sense.

Do you think I should use SwirlX on the area I just messed up, or only on light swirls on other areas of the car? I'm guessing SwirlX is less abrasive than 205? I also have Meguiars Swirl Remover 2.0. Is that the same as SwirlX?

Oh, I forgot to mention that I did not clean the pad after every other application. Would that make that much of a difference in the number of swirls I created? How do you clean the pad after each application?

[greg0303]

Re: Using 105 and 205 with the PC

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the response. I worked in the shade, then moved into the sun to see if I could detect any swirls. I called Meguiars and explained the situation to them. They felt I may not be working the area long enough which in turn doesn't let the abrasive particles fully dissolve. Seems to make sense.

Do you think I should use SwirlX on the area I just messed up, or only on light swirls on other areas of the car? I'm guessing SwirlX is less abrasive than 205? I also have Meguiars Swirl Remover 2.0. Is that the same as SwirlX?

Oh, I forgot to mention that I did not clean the pad after every other application. Would that make that much of a difference in the number of swirls I created? How do you clean the pad after each application?

Actually SwirlX has more cutting ability than M205. You also have M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish in between which has really traditional feeling of buffing.
I would do some test runs with both: SwirlX and M205, to see which one you like/ which one works better, side by side for easy comparison. Use separate pads for each product.
You can clean your pads with clean towel but pad conditioning brushes work the best. You can get them at Autogeek or ADS. There are separate versions for wool and foam pads.
The compound really starts working as an abrasive product and later switches to polishing mode. M105 dries pretty quickly so constant reapplication is needed to avoid dry buffing. Of course speed, down pressure and type of pad use play a big role as well. Another trick is to mark your backing plate with marker to see if it still rotates under pressure. No rotation no progress with polishing.

Sorry about hijacking this thread.