PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

[InfiniteDetail]

I finally got a chance to try out my new PC on my '88 Mustang. The hood has lots of spider webbing/scratches on it. I taped off a test area and used #83 at 6 for a few passes. It seemed like the polish disappeared after a few seconds so I experimented a little and found that at speed 4.5 - 5.0 I could work with it for a while before it dried.

I did 3 passes with #83 at 4.5 and it looked great in the garage and with a hand held flourescent light, but out in the sunlight the spider webbing and scratches are still there, although not as severe as the rest of the hood.

I applied a good amout of pressure to the PC, not sure how many lbs of pressure though since I don't have an old bathroom scale to test with.

Am I not applying enough pressure? Or do I need something more aggressive like a rotary with a compound?

This car was repainted by the previous owner, could the clear coat be really hard?

Any advice is appreciated.....Thanks

[Mike Phillips]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

I finally got a chance to try out my new PC on my '88 Mustang. The hood has lots of spider webbing/scratches on it. I taped off a test area and used #83 at 6 for a few passes. It seemed like the polish disappeared after a few seconds so I experimented a little and found that at speed 4.5 - 5.0 I could work with it for a while before it dried.

I did 3 passes with #83 at 4.5 and it looked great in the garage and with a hand held fluorescent light, but out in the sunlight the spider webbing and scratches are still there, although not as severe as the rest of the hood.

I applied a good amount of pressure to the PC, not sure how many lbs of pressure though since I don't have an old bathroom scale to test with.

Am I not applying enough pressure? Or do I need something more aggressive like a rotary with a compound?

This car was repainted by the previous owner, could the clear coat be really hard?

Well you made an improvement, it could just be a matter of tweaking your technique.

First question, just to make sure, what pad are you using?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Read through this and see if anything listed as a possible problem stands out to you.


Tips & Techniques for using the G110, G100, G220 and the PC Dual Action Polisher
(These are all similar tools)

After teaching hundreds of classes here at Meguiar's, there are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time
2. Move the polisher too fast over the surface
3. Too low of speed setting for removing swirls
4. Too little pressure on the head of the unit
5. Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating
6. Not keeping the pad flat while working your product
7. Too much product, too little product
8. Not cleaning the pad often enough

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
2. For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
3. When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
4. For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
5. Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
6. Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
7. Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
8. Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video camera

The first 4 are the most common. Can't tell you how many times we hear a comment like this from someone in the garage after demonstrating the correct technique

"That's what I'm doing wrong"


The dual action polisher is a gentle tool, that's why people like it. People are afraid of machines because they're worried they're going to either instill swirls or burn through the paint. When they learn that this is pretty hard to do with this machine, so after enough research or after watching a demonstration they learn to trust it and try it.

Summary: People like the dual action polisher because it's oscillating action is safe and gentle to the surface.

Now follow me on this...
For the same reason people love the dual action polisher, (it's safe and gentle), a segment of people get frustrated with it because it won't remove all defects all the time. It won't tackle serious or deep defects quickly and easily. It won't always work on really hard paints. So for the same reason people love this tool, they also hate it, they just don't know why. Maybe after reading this post they will understand.


This is the reason this thread is so widely read and you can learn a lot from it if you'll only take the time to read through it.

PC + 83 not "Cutting" it! - The Limits of the Dual Action Polisher


Even the pictures of the paint on the white truck on the first page and the story behind it are powerful and REAL (This writer took them and did the testing with both the G100/PC and the RB).

When the G100/PC with a strong cleaner/polish like M83 and our W-8006 polishing pad doesn't remove the defects to your satisfaction or within an acceptable time limit the answer is not to get more aggressive with a more aggressive pad or chemical or both, the answer is to switch to a more powerful machine like the rotary buffer and or take the car to a Pro who knows how to use a rotary buffer, or learn to live with the defects.

Hope this helps...

[InfiniteDetail]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Well you made an improvement, it could just be a matter of tweaking your technique.

First question, just to make sure, what pad are you using?

Sorry, I omitted that important piece of information. I used the 8006 pad. It is most definitely an improvement. I just went out and looked at it again and the improvement is better than I thought before, so maybe a few more passes with #83? Is it pretty typical to have to make this many passes to get the defects out? Thanks

[InfiniteDetail]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Thanks for the great information.

The first lesson I learned was using the right speed. Speed 6 dried up way to fast. Is it safe to say I should use the highest speed I can without the product drying up too fast?

Also, I didn't clean the pad after each application. I'll try that on my next attempt.

I think I'm in the ballkpark with pressure and speed - I move about an inch per second.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Just work section by section and make as many passes as it takes to get the finish to where you like it. Maybe just tackle a panel at a time like the hood and don't try to do the entire car in one day.

You might want to try the M80 also, it's a wetter product offers more working time plus you never know how a different product might work.

Make sure your pad is rotating, mark it with a black felt marker, in most cases when removing swirls and scratches you want to apply firm pressure to the head of the polisher but not so much that the pad stops rotating. Also be sure you're holding the pad flat to the paint as best as you can, getting on an edge stops the rotating action.

[InfiniteDetail]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Thanks again for the advice I'll give it a try and post again tomorrow.

[roushstage2]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Try it on speed 5 too.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Cleaning the pad frequently is extremely important when using M83. While it's a good practice to get into anyway, you really notice a big difference using M83 with a frequently cleaned pad.

There are limits to what can be done with the DA, it's simply the nature of the beast. Some clear coats are so much harder to correct that a DA just won't, uh....cut it (no pun intended, I promise!).

[InfiniteDetail]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

What is the best way to clean the pad between passes?

[Nappers]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

I watched several video's online and pix from Open Garages and I hold a terry cloth in palm of my hand, lay it over the pad, turn on PC and let it jiggle you a bit and gently squeeze the pad and let it spin slightly (it's hard) to soak the residual product out onto the towel. I bought the cheapo Costco 100% terry cloth and use quite a few as I clean on the fly after every application until I perfect my technique, which is a work in progress.

I also used 2 pads on our Neon, so probably will use 3 pads or more on our Yukon as it's way bigger.

Try at least 3 passes of 83, then follow with 80 with 8006 pad and see how it looks on your test spot.

The CC on our Neon is hard as nails and I had to use a rotary in some of the more abused spots (hood, roof, upper rear quarters).

Show us some pix too

Aaron

[Nappers]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

here's some pictures from the San Diego Shelby Club Saturday Class:





And a link: (pics didn't show on my computer, yet)

Cleaning your pad on the fly

Have fun.

Aaron

[InfiniteDetail]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Thanks, this forum is the best!!

[VQHRZed]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Very instresting, what speed would the DA be on when cleaning the pad

[yalerd]

Re: PC 7424 first use...what am I doing wrong?

Same speed you are working, speed setting 5 can be used.