Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

[1fastsedan]

Hey everyone. I received my PC last year from my very car-understanding wife as a gift. I've detailed several cars several times with it and have worked very hard to learn proper technique with quality chemicals. My issue is that my personal car is black and has VERY hard clear coat. Several passes of M83 in small sections with plenty of pressure still leaves a few swirls and I have some scratches on the hood that the 83 didn't touch. I know a rotary would take care of these issues, but I'm not sure I'm ready skill-wise to make that jump yet.

My question is whether putting a smaller pad and backing plate, like a 3" for motorcycles, will increase the cleaning action/power of a PC? Wouldn't the effect be similar to working a smaller area? Thanks.

[soonercivic]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

I recently did a Corvette (really hard clear) and got a ton of dog scratches out of it using my PC. Make sure you don't move too fast, the reason a rotary works so well is it builds heat very fast, the PC doesn't do it as quickly because of the motion it makes. I would suggest just spending more time on it, try a few different methods and products and stick with what works. Remember that Meguiars probably makes a 6.5" pad as the smallest for a reason, they aren't new to this.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

Yes, switching to a smaller diameter pad will reduce surface drag due to reduced surface area required for the PC to move in both a rotating action and a oscillating action, therefore more available power to supply to the smaller pads.

Note that smaller pads mean less compression strength and your pads will squish to a very thin size with the weight of the polisher and any force you apply. So you have to be careful and conscience of the backing plate so that you don't make a mistake, same thing happens with small foam pads on the rotary buffer.

Also, small foam pads tend to more easily haze the finish, this isn't a problem during the defect removal process because you can always remove any haze later with a larger pad and less aggressive product. Not sure why this happens, it's different for different types of foam also.

For defect removal with full-size pads, dry pads work best. As your pads become saturated you'll notice they rotate less and this means less cleaning action, or in other words you won't be able to remove as much paint with the PC/Pad/Chemical.

Lately whenever I'm working on a customer's car I try to have plenty of dry pads on hand, they are not new pads, just clean, dry used pads. As soon as the pad becomes wet with product it will be replaced with a dry pad. This restores cleaning power and speeds up the cleaning step. Usually one pad per section, as in one pad for a fender, one pad for a door, one pad for another fender, one pad for the deck-lid, etc.

For a 2-door car with a painted roof this would mean approximately 9 pads give or take a few pads depending upon how large the panels, there's a lot of difference between the roof of our Honda Pilot and the roof of a small car.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

the reason a rotary works so well is it builds heat very fast

Heat and clear coat paints don't go together very well.

The reason a rotary buffer is more effective at removing defects below the surface, in other words, removing paint off the car, is because the pad is directly moving over and against the surface, pushing and forcing your choice of abrasive product over and against the surface and this acts to remove small particles of paint very quickly.

The G100/PC on the other hand offers limited rotating action, the pad on a dual action polisher will rotate but under too much pressure or when your pad becomes saturated the rotation action will slow or stop and you will be left with oscillating action that in reality is mostly vibrating action.

It's the direct drive feature of the rotary buffer that enables it to remove paint quickly and effectively. It is also this reason that if you're not careful you'll burn the paint, as in remove too much clear coat and expose the color coat or remove everything and expose the panel underneath whether it's metal or some type of composite material.

The rotary buffer a handful of power and risk, even in experienced hands.


On a lot of forums you'll read statements my members to the effect that heat is necessary to break down abrasives, or to work the product correctly... this isn't true.

Here you go...

"Heat is not a necessary component of the rotary
buffer process but an unavoidable by-product"

[OhioCarBuff]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

For defect removal with full-size pads, dry pads work best. As your pads become saturated you'll notice they rotate less and this means less cleaning action, or in other words you won't be able to remove as much paint with the PC/Pad/Chemical.

Lately whenever I'm working on a customer's car I try to have plenty of dry pads on hand, they are not new pads, just clean, dry used pads. As soon as the pad becomes wet with product it will be replaced with a dry pad. This restores cleaning power and speeds up the cleaning step. Usually one pad per section, as in one pad for a fender, one pad for a door, one pad for another fender, one pad for the deck-lid, etc.

For a 2-door car with a painted roof this would mean approximately 9 pads give or take a few pads depending upon how large the panels, there's a lot of difference between the roof of our Honda Pilot and the roof of a small car.

Mike,

I've always used 1 pad per cleaning product for the whole car, how much of a difference will it make if I use 3 or so pads per product? Do we absolutely need to use multiple pads?

[scott504]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

Lately whenever I'm working on a customer's car I try to have plenty of dry pads on hand, they are not new pads, just clean, dry used pads. As soon as the pad becomes wet with product it will be replaced with a dry pad. This restores cleaning power and speeds up the cleaning step. Usually one pad per section, as in one pad for a fender, one pad for a door, one pad for another fender, one pad for the deck-lid, etc.

For a 2-door car with a painted roof this would mean approximately 9 pads give or take a few pads depending upon how large the panels, there's a lot of difference between the roof of our Honda Pilot and the roof of a small car.

Sounds like advice from someone who gets free pads. Would cleaning the pads on a terry towel after every 18x18 section work??

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

Mike,

I've always used 1 pad per cleaning product for the whole car, how much of a difference will it make if I use 3 or so pads per product? Do we absolutely need to use multiple pads?

Well it depends on what you're trying to do, for light cleaning of the paint one pad is fine, if you're trying to remove swirls and scratches and avoid using a rotary buffer for the job then more power throughout the entire cleaning process is necessary.

For example, when we machine cleaned, polished and waxed this 1954 Corvette with a single stage lacquer paint job, we didn't want to use a rotary buffer because we weren't sure of how much film-build we had to work with and because the rotary buffer can remove a lot of paint quickly we opted to stay on the safe side and use only a dual action polisher. At the same time we did want show car results and this means we wanted effective cleaning power, so we changed our foam pad after each panel. When we did this it was very apparent that the rotating action was renewed each time we replaced a wet pad with a dry pad, thus more cleaning power.

1954 Corvette - Single-Stage Lacquer - About as black as black gets.






So how many pads you choose to use is kind of up to you and what your car care goals are, what is it that you want to accomplish?

What we know however is that the more wet a pad becomes, the resulting wet foam tends to absorb and dissipate the power supplied by a dual action polisher.


When we were asked to work on this car the owner simply said he wanted the car clayed and waxed, we evaluated the finish and found lots of swirls and scratches that were giving the clear coat finish a hazy appearance, so we couldn't just clay and wax the car, we had to put the paint through a thorough cleaning step to remove at a minimum the shallow swirls and scratches and in effect restore clarity to the clearcoat which would then give the paint a high gloss finish which is what the owner wanted. His words were the paint lacked "Glam", which he thought was necessary for a car of this Marque.




Next time you work on a car, try to have at least two clean, DRY pads as in W-8006 pads for the cleaning step and pay attention to the rotating action of the first pad as you use it, then switch to the dry second pad and see if you notice the power and rotating action improve.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

Sounds like advice from someone who gets free pads.

Or someone that actually works on cars and gains insight and experience because while working on a car they also pay acute attention to the process as a whole as well as each component of the process.

Would cleaning the pads on a terry towel after every 18x18 section work??

It helps, but not enough to change the transfer of power. Cleaning your pads often is actually very important because it's important to work clean, it also helps fresh product to work at its best potential. From watching and talking to hundreds of people over the years it's pretty accurate to say that most people don't clean their pads often enough either when working with a dual action polisher or a rotary buffer.

[1fastsedan]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

Well too few pads is definitely part of my problem then. I've been cleaning it out on a towel after each section, but not changing them out over the course of the car. Looks like I'll have to hit it again with some dry pads. Thanks.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Smaller pads = more cleaning power from PC?

Well too few pads is definitely part of my problem then. I've been cleaning it out on a towel after each section, but not changing them out over the course of the car. Looks like I'll have to hit it again with some dry pads. Thanks.

Yeah it's kind of a learning curve thing... and also a characteristic of this type of tool and pads. The same thing holds true for working with a rotary buffer, that is a fresh dry pad, broken in, will work better than a wet saturated pad.

M83 gives really great results as far as removing defects and leaving behind a very low swirl finish, but anyone that has ever buffed out an entire car using a W-8000 or W-8006 pad with M83 knows that after you've been buffing for a while the product will appear to become gummy on the surface after you begin buffing with it.

If you stop when you notice this and switch to a clean, dry pad you'll notice the product starts buffing as normal again...

What changed?

Not the product, but the pad.

Pads are expensive but your time is valuable and doing things in such a way as to get the results you want while at the same time making your project as easy as possible is a win/win situation for you. And when you're the one doing the work out in your garage or in your shop or your customer's garage then you want your work to be as easy as possible with the best results possible.