Bub Abraham's Certification Article.

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Well as I said Bud, some things are pretty straight forward, for example bolting an intake manifold onto a small block Chevy engine.

Polishing paint is an art form and requires the human elements of care and passion, if this were not true, we wouldn't see all the swirled-out and botched buff jobs that we constantly see.

OK, Mike. I can buy part of what you're saying here, but let's go back to your other comment:

Another factor is product choice, some products are better than others and the end-results will clearly show this, (no pun intended). What happens when a person is certified but switches to inferior products, or the shop he's working in switches to inferior products? Some detailers have no control over the products and tools they use.

Basically if I take what you're saying correctly, I could state that an ASE certified brake technician doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

Sure, it's straight forward to install pads and rotors, but what if the tech isn't using baer, brembo, SSBC, etc. components? Suddenly his certification is just as worthless as a certified detailer, because he's using inferior products.

Let's think objectively about what certification, in ANY industry, is really about. It merely says that a detailer is trained to be competent with the tools and techniques to use. Whether or not the products he works with are the best or not, he is not INTENTIONALLY doing something wrong.

That's no different than the other background I have in computers. I'm certified in doing certain jobs, but I'm not certified in only one specific brand.

[MrWolf710]

Something else to remember is that a certification is only as good as it's advertising. If no one knows about a cert then it doesn't matter if you have it. If the average consumer has never heard of ICars cert then it won't mean anything to them that you have it. I could easily make a business card that's says I'm Meguiar's certified, but it doesn't mean anything becuase I made it up (and it my case it would really mean absolutely nothing
Unless there was a huge marketing push to go along with the cert then it would be the same - just random letters on a business card.

[SeabreezeDetailing]

I have to agree with MrWolf710,

I think certification would be great, but I dont think most customers would really care about it. When I explain my training to a potential client, or that I am a member of the PDTA, it goes in one ear and out the other. When I break out my photo albumn, and explain the procedures Im going to do with their vehicle, their all ears. The only customers Ive ever had ask me about any formal training were classic car owners and the occasional Italian car owners.

I do see this being positive in that the people who actually go after this certification genuinely care about their business, and care enough about their clients to be sure they are up with the industries standards. Wether the customers care to know or not, knowing that your detailing business is recongnized as being certified should be worth it.

I personally have always seen detailing as more of an art than a technical skill (braces for flaming!)

[Mike Phillips]

This is confusing, but try to follow me... since I'm quoting you quoting me, I've made my words blue.

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Well as I said Bud, some things are pretty straight forward, for example bolting an intake manifold onto a small block Chevy engine.

Polishing paint is an art form and requires the human elements of care and passion, if this were not true, we wouldn't see all the swirled-out and botched buff jobs that we constantly see.

Originally posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
OK, Mike. I can buy part of what you're saying here, but let's go back to your other comment:

and...

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Another factor is product choice, some products are better than others and the end-results will clearly show this, (no pun intended). What happens when a person is certified but switches to inferior products, or the shop he's working in switches to inferior products? Some detailers have no control over the products and tools they use.

Originally posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
Basically if I take what you're saying correctly, I could state that an ASE certified brake technician doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

Sure, it's straight forward to install pads and rotors, but what if the tech isn't using baer, brembo, SSBC, etc. components? Suddenly his certification is just as worthless as a certified detailer, because he's using inferior products.

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End of quoted material.
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I see this all the time, a young detailer, with a heart of gold, is given a rotary buffer with a wool pad and a one-step cleaner/wax.

His results will be buffer swirls, no matter how good he is, no matter how good his intentions are or no matter how many certifications he has.

Case in point... the young man detailing and maintaining the Ferrari in the below thread works for a detailing company. They supplied him with his products and tools and trained him how to detail cars, if you look at the before pictures, the finish is dull, hazy and filled with swirls.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/sho...&threadid=2877


This is what I mean when I say that certification won't make up for inferior products. Wool pads and one-step cleaner/products are not inferior products.

Wool pads are great for removing serious defects or sanding marks, but not for the finishing work. Sometimes a person doesn't have any say over the products they use, or the process they follow.

How many times have you seen someone post the question on how to remove swirls instilled in the brand new car they just bought from the big, mighty "New Car Dealership"

Why does a brand new car have to come from from the dealership with swirls in the finish?

The answer is it doesn't have to, but it does because the management at many dealerships either don't care, are not educated, or don't want to spend the money on quality products and training for their staff and more than likely all of the above.


Just to note, I've been in almost nothing but e-mails since 6:00am this morning, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this topic. This is whey I have this posted here,

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...&threadid=7270

You can feel free to discuss it among yourselves however, as for me I'm going to lunch...

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
This is what I mean when I say that certification won't make up for inferior products. Wool pads and one-step cleaner/products are not inferior products.

Wool pads are great for removing serious defects or sanding marks, but not for the finishing work. Sometimes a person doesn't have any say over the products they use, or the process they follow.

And this is why, (perhaps naiively) I guess I'd like to think that having proper training programs leading to certifications would lessen these types of incidents. Personally, if I were a certified detailer (well, actually, even as the non-certified, but well educated long-time detailing enthusiast/professional that I am) I would not submit to working for a shop that was giving me the conditions you describe. If I didn't have any say over what I was using, and I knew it to be wrong/producing inferior results, I would not be working for that particular shop.

As far as I'm concerned, in that aspect, the more certified detailers that started showing up out there, the more widely adopted a certification process would become. In turn, less and less "shady shod shops" would exist and/or last, as enough people within the business would know better. I see certification as a means to help improve quality across the board by weeding out the hacks. Granted, it'd be a slow process at first, but anything worth doing takes time and effort (as we all know from the countless hours of prep work and polishing we put into our and our customers' vehicles).

How many times have you seen someone post the question on how to remove swirls instilled in the brand new car they just bought from the big, mighty "New Car Dealership"

Why does a brand new car have to come from from the dealership with swirls in the finish?

The answer is it doesn't have to, but it does because the management at many dealerships either don't care, are not educated, or don't want to spend the money on quality products and training for their staff and more than likely all of the above.

Again, if a certification program were to become more of a mainstream thing, we would likely see this situation turn around. If the guys who are "managing" the detail shop at the dealer were trained and equipped with proper products and equipment, and trained well, that would pass on to the staff, which would increase output quality.

Now like I said, perhaps my viewpoint (as a "young detailer" myself, being only 20 and having been in the business/industry/hobby seriously for 5-6 years or so) is a bit naiive, but I doubt it's so off-base that it couldn't realistically happen.

[Mike Phillips]

I agree with you in that if everyone were to be certified, i.e. educated, including shop managers, detailers, etc. then the hope that higher quality work would be performed would have a better chance of becoming a reality.


Knowing what I know today, even if I were to see a certification badge on a shirt sleeve, or a plaque on the wall, I would still want to see what a detailer was going to touch my car's finish with.

[Pete-FWA]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Knowing what I know today, even if I were to see a certification badge on a shirt sleeve, or a plaque on the wall, I would still want to see what a detailer was going to touch my car's finish with.

I agree with that 100%. Detailing is even more about technique and finesse and less about brute mechanical force than many other services. In my explanation to customers and firends, it is an artistic form of expression similar to paint work. It's about image and perspective. We're not replacing fenders or adding fluids, we're changing the image of that vehicle. It will not run or maneuver any differently. It will feel, look, and smell differently. The aesthetics are why detailers are in business. Look at how many people peddling used vehicles get them cleaned and do no mechanical work.

Think about how many ASE Certified Tech badges, certificates, and plaques you've seen in shops that have left you unsatisfied with the work by those same technicians.

Detail training is available and could be advantageous to an open minded student, but certification doesn't mean automatic success in the field.

[detailbarn]

Originally posted by Pete-FWA
Think about how many ASE Certified Tech badges, certificates, and plaques you've seen in shops that have left you unsatisfied with the work by those same technicians.

well said ....

[Hannibal]

Im a capitalist I hate anything to do with ANY kind of government regulation/certification (local state federal etc) of trades. If you are no good at detailing, don't worry.....You wont have much work. There's a natural market balance, found everyday in our economy.

I love how it seems this idea of this certification is to "protect the customer"

It's always about money. Dont think for one minute it isnt. This seems like an attempt to place distance between someone who may be starting out in the business from the guy who may have more time detailing, thereby placing himself in a leveraged financial situation, just because he is "certified".

The State of Texas in September 2004 adopted and passed legislation creating the Texas State Board of Electrical Examiners. I think it is great. I was grandfathered into the new board because of experience, training etc.
But I have to tell you that was primarily done by Liberal lobbyists in the Texas House to try to remove the little man from business. There are hundreds maybe thousands of electricians who worked in Rural areas for many decades, but because of the new law, are now unemployed because they dont meet the standards set forth by the State. You now have to have a permit to work on your OWN HOUSE!! And it has to be inspected by a State Licensed Inspector.
My Point: You will be putting the "little businesses" in an unfair advantage. And I also agree that certification dont mean squat in most cases. Its about personal ethics and integrity that determine how well you perform in your trade.

Maybe I should just stay in the detailing 101 threads

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by Pete-FWA
Think about how many ASE Certified Tech badges, certificates, and plaques you've seen in shops that have left you unsatisfied with the work by those same technicians.

Detail training is available and could be advantageous to an open minded student, but certification doesn't mean automatic success in the field.

Well, no, and that's really not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that having a formal training process would reduce the chance that hacks would still be in business, just like "non-ASE" techs have a harder time finding work in most shops. That's not to say that some of the certified folks aren't any good, or to say that all non-certified folks are bad. It just says that if you're going to one of the MAJOR shops, they'll be running a tighter ship than most.

And, admittedly, I don't care WHERE I take my vehicle for service, I am the type that if they won't let me stand in the shop watching them work, they aren't touching my vehicles. I've been in shops standing closer to the action than probably was safe, but I didn't, and don't care about that. I'm just that picky.

Let's face it though, most folks are NOT going to be so picky.

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by Hannibal
Im a capitalist I hate anything to do with ANY kind of government regulation/certification (local state federal etc) of trades. If you are no good at detailing, don't worry.....You wont have much work. There's a natural market balance, found everyday in our economy.

I love how it seems this idea of this certification is to "protect the customer" My Point: You will be putting the "little businesses" in an unfair advantage. And I also agree that certification dont mean squat in most cases. Its about personal ethics and integrity that determine how well you perform in your trade.

We aren't talking about government regulation/certification. We're talking about an industry or trade organization independently operating for the good of the industry. The protection is for the industry, not the customer. "Hacks" generally won't be going out and getting certified, unless the certification process/testing is way too lenient. Therefore, the rest of the industry won't suffer as badly from one hack giving the whole market of detailers a bad name.

I've actually seen this happen, where a person goes to a bad detail shop, and afterwards is soured about EVER having a vehicle detailed again since it is, to them, a waste of money. The connection that maybe it was just one particular shop/detailer doesn't even enter their minds.

Granted, though, there still is an ethical debate over integrity to be considered.... but the certification can't hurt.

Maybe I should just stay in the detailing 101 threads

LOL no, that's ok.... you make some valid arguments; it just seems to me from a business perspective, that certifications are more of a positive influence than a negative one. And that goes both for automotive, and the industry I've experienced first hand in computers/IT.

[inthedetails]

If it is Industry based and the same everywhere, i.e. there are not 2 different group with in the industry offering the "same" type of certification, then I don't see it doing much harm. It can only force those currently detailing to get better, and also protect the industry for when the new guys come in. There will always be those that don't get certified, and they will still have a customer base. As was stated before, many people will not care - certified or not.

I work as a Firefighter/EMT. The Massachusetts Department of Emergency Medical Services oversees my Certification and Re-certification. And althought the "Standard" is the same, I cannot practice in any other State, because Massachusetts does not recognize reciprocity to other States. The same goes for my Firefighter 2 and Instructor Certifications, even though they are to a National Standard as well. This is my concern about multiple certifying agencies.

I understand the comparisons, but it is not the same as your mechanic being certified. If you paint is screwed up, your car will still run and stop. Wait, wait.....I am not saying it is acceptable, just that there are whole bunch of non-caring car owners that will be ok. (You've seen 'em - the ones that think dressed tires make a clean car)

My one concern is about Mike's point about buffing. As one learning this art form, how do you test for it? And when it comes to paint, it is the litmus test.....bad buffing = bad detailing.
It is the first thing you see.

Dave

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by inthedetails
My one concern is about Mike's point about buffing. As one learning this art form, how do you test for it?

A certified exam proctor would have to watch you use a DA and Rotary buffer on a scrap hood to be sure you aren't using bad technique (e.g. leaving buffer trails, etc.)

[Beercan31]

WOW. Can't belive this thread is still going! Must be one of those Hot Topics. and there are some good valid points being brought up.

My take on detailing is that "We" are the minority, the average person really don't give a Hoot how the car looks, there lives are full enough with out adding more to think about in it. This certification will only prove to "US" that you can do the job right the first time.(Thinking outside the box)

Regardless if you are pro or con about having a certification to prove you can do the job or not in not going to change the industry at all, you will always be bidding against the fly by night detailer. That my friends is Free Enterprise Plain and simple. you will never stop consumer Joe from going down to the local store buying a can of wax putting it on some ones car for a dime.

I still can not see the marketing advantages of this, when most of society see this as a hobby or a small business (please don't take this as an insult, i know I did when I first had it said to me)

As for using the ASE and EMT as an example for getting a certification in the field of detailing, is more like comparing apples and oranges, ASE and EMT's are both skills that have a eminent health and welfare and or life and death challenges attached to them by there nature, Detailing does not. I really don't think that customer "A" goes to garage "B" because they are ASE certified mechanics, I never heard nor seen this in the real world. or just before someone has been involved in an accident they think "Gee hope my crew has there EMT stats. We all choose by convenience, Pricing, location or Warrantees.

Originally posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
A certified exam proctor would have to watch you use a DA and Rotary buffer on a scrap hood to be sure you aren't using bad technique (e.g. leaving buffer trails, etc.)

Sure hope this guy is a volunteer, if not Who is going to pay his salary? Me?, You? Meg's? (that would be conflict of interest)

[inthedetails]

I only used the EMT comparison to talk about a one standard system.........then again, the people in my Town may be more concerned about their cars than their EMTs....