What exactly causes the buffer marks?

[gb387]

I have used a rotary buffer many time but never on a cars finish, I have always had good luck so.... I an attempt to help understand a rotary a little more. What exactly causes the buffer marks you see on vehciles like the photo in the quote below? Is it from the edge of the pad, not enought product, wrong product, wrong pad?

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
This was a powerful before and after using all Meguiar's products...

Before




After



It was also the owners first time using the G-100 and tackling a project of this magnitude...



Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Re: What exactly causes the buffer marks?

Originally posted by gb387
I have used a rotary buffer many time but never on a cars finish, I have always had good luck so.... In an attempt to help understand a rotary a little more. What exactly causes the buffer marks you see on vehicles like the photo in the quote below? Is it from the edge of the pad, not enough product, wrong product, wrong pad?

It's all of the things you listed.

Producing a swirl-free, flawless finish is an art form. It requires, skill, experience, passion, as well as the right tools.

Wool pads and compounds with mechanical abrasives that don't breakdown are always going to induce swirls. This is why Meguiar's has always, since their inception, created formulas for removing sanding mark and other serious paint defects with products that won't scratch and scour the finish.

Barry told me that Frank Meguiar's early furniture cleaners used diminishing abrasives. This technology was also used when Meguiar's introduced their early automotive paint cleaners and polishes.

That's why this invention, the Wooless Wonder was such a landmark back in 1965, it enabled craftsman to get away from using wool finishing pads to reduce and eliminate buffer swirl.



Heres' a list of causes where buffer swirls come from in no particular order,

• * Wool Pads used with any product (it's the individual fibers that put their own cut or scratch into the finish)
  
  * Foam pads used with the wrong products
  
  * Wrong product and/or pad for final buff
  
  * Working to fast, hurrying. (Production shops)
  
  * Holding the buffer at an angle instead of flat
  
  * Bad technique
  
  * Unclean shop environment, dirt or other contaminants on the finish
  
  * Dirty or contaminated pad
  
  * Buffing to a dry buff
  
  * Speed setting to high

This list is just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are a few more causes. The worst offenders, and most common culprits are wool pads and products that are too abrasive. After that I would guess poor technique from either lack of training, lack of experience, or work being done to fast. This last one, working too fast may be out of the technicians control. That is, he may know how to buff properly, but if he's working in a production environment, or not given the right tools to do professional work, then buffer swirls are inevitable, but possibly not the fault of the technician.

I've called on many shops where the owner, or the shop manager decides what the employees use, and how long they are given to accomplish a project.

In the pictures above where the paint is all swirled out, it looks like a wool pad was used and held on an angle. More than likely the buffing work is done where the swirls are not easily apparent and/or a filling glaze is applied to hide them. Either way, in the eyes of the shop, the finish quality is acceptable and the part is sold or shipped out. After the owner washed his truck a few times, attended our Detailing class and learned how to properly evaluate his truck's finish, he discovered his brand new custom tonnuea was filled with swirls. (To his dismay I might point out).

Anyway, there are a lot of reasons and causes for swirls in paint, the best thing to do is to educate yourself on how to avoid putting them in. This can also include educating yourself as to what to look out for when letting someone else work on your car's finish. Thus the reason some people will not let a dealership wash their car when they take it in for service.

It's also a good idea when looking for a quality detailer to detail your car to ask some questions and try to find out his experience level and even the type of pads and products they will be using your your car's finish.

The swirls in the door of this Corvette were put in by a detailer who after noticing what his product was doing to the paint, quickly ended his demonstration and left the owner with a swirled out mess.

1999 Corvette - Remove Swirls and Scratches



The scouring on the drivers door was caused by a detailer applying some type of compound by hand in an effort to win a new customer. Below is a close-up of the damage.



Close-up



The owner didn't see the damage that was being done because it was in a different light setting at the time. The detailer did because he more than likely has a more keen eye for this type of thing and his results probably caught him off guard. Instead of owning up to the mistake, he cut his losses and left before the owner would realize what happened.

When I met the owner of the above Corvette, he still didn't know about the swirls because he never looked at the finish in the right light. When I was leaving his office, the cars parked around his Corvette had left and this allowed the sun's rays to shine directly on the side of his car exposing the damage. I asked the owner what happened and he looked at me with a surprised look in his eye and asked me what I was talking about. I then pointed to his door and said, "The swirls in your Corvette's door?.

It was at that point, when he looked at the paint in the right light, that he saw the scouring and scratches that make his paint look all hazy that he remembered the detailer showing him a product that was supposed to make his paint look great.

Anyway, the point is you need to not only be aware of the products and procedures you use when working on your car, but you also need to be aware of the products and procedures others have used, or are going to use on your car and in the case of the swirled-out black tonnuea above, what products and procedures the manufacture uses.

Mike

[gb387]

Thanks for all the info! Very helpful, sounds like you have to have the right combo to get everything looking its best, as you do with anything but more so with a rotary. One big key is the foam pad. I guess good practice would be on an old hood/door or someones car in the walmart parking lot... well maybe not .

Again, thanks for the info!

[scrub]

Mike, very nice write up. Very educational and inspirational. This thread makes me want to go out and buy a rotary for next season. I do have some other questions I'd like to ask but not hijack this thread. I will start a new thread.

gb387

Great topic!!

[sky8811]

Re: Re: What exactly causes the buffer marks?

Originally posted by Mike Phillips

Heres' a list of causes where buffer swirls come from in no particular order,

• * Wool Pads used with any product (it's the individual fibers that put their own cut or scratch into the finish)
  
  * Foam pads used with the wrong products
  
  * Wrong product and/or pad for final buff
  
  * Working to fast, hurrying. (Production shops)
  
  * Holding the buffer at an angle instead of flat
  
  * Bad technique
  
  * Unclean shop environment, dirt or other contaminants on the finish
  
  * Dirty or contaminated pad
  
  * Buffing to a dry buff
  
  * Speed setting to high

Mike [/B]

Hi Mike,

You mentioned that the buffer should be flat and not angled,
but I was tought to always lift the left side of the buffer slightly?
Mike care to explain if I am doing something wrong




sky8811

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Re: Re: What exactly causes the buffer marks?

Originally posted by sky8811
Hi Mike,

You mentioned that the buffer should be flat and not angled,
but I was taught to always lift the left side of the buffer slightly?
Mike care to explain if I am doing something wrong




sky8811

Hi sky8811m

I think what you're referring to is when you're lifting the left side of your pad to draw in your strip of product, (that you have poured onto the finish before turning your buffer on).

After you have picked up your strip, or bead of product, you then lay your pad flat.

Sometimes you can hold your pad completely flat because you are in a tight area or working on a small or narrow panel such as the A-Pillar. The A-pillar is the portion of the car body that runs from the hood/front fender up the side of the windshield and connects the body to the room. It's usually only a couple of inches wide.

So there are exceptions to the rule when buffing with a rotary buffer, but when possible, you need to always buff flat.

Mike

[Buellwinkle]

I've been using a Makita rotary buffer for years on my personal cars. I've used wool pads with highly abbrasive 3M compound once, on a car that the paint was too thick on and I needed to take it down a notch instead of wet sanding. I would never use anything close to that on a modern clear finish. If you want your first rotary experience to be good, get soft, small thick pads like Lake's 6". Then get a very light polish. In the Megiars line that would be #80 Speed Glaze, I use Malco Rejuvenator (both of these are commercial products, don't look for them at Pep Boys). Use a medium pad (most seem to use yellow to signify medium) and put a quarter size blob in the middle, set the buffer to it's slowest setting, about 1,500 rpm (that's a 1 on my Makita). Put the buffing pad flat against the metal and quickly cover an area about the size of a quarter of your hood to spread the product and then work it in back and forth, overlapping about 50% each time and keep going until most of the product dissapears. Don't put any more weight on the buffer than the weight of the machine. Let the machine do the work, not you. Do not use a foam pad at an angle, never. You do on a wool pads because it flexes with the work but that's for very aggressive cutting, not for polishing swirls and not for clear coat finishes.

I've done many cars and let kids do their own cars, black ones and I've never seen the damage you shown above. Something went horribly wrong there. Like Mike says, it's probably too strong of a compound or a dirty pad. Don't even think wool would do that, wool would leave it cloudy, almost like you color sanded it.

[sky8811]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the information...
I think I've misunderstood what was being told to me in the past.
Will re-start practise what you've mentioned.
Thank GOD I've not done any damage to any car

sky8811

[jays]

that had to have been done by a bodyshop or detail shop. i would find it hard to think that the owner did it like that. IF you watch the meguiars video showing how not to use a buffer. Thats what it looks like in that pic.

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

I believe the owner of the above tonneau cover picked it up like that from the dealer. The owner did an impressive job removing the holograms!!!

As Mike pointed out, using the wrong pad/product, wrong speed, an angled pad etc.... can create these holograms/buffer tails. There are many factors that must be considered.

It is difficult at first trying to keep the foam pad flat against the surface. As a result, a lot of people tilt the pad which can create the buffer tails you see above. Therefore, keep that pad flat!

I think Mike covered the topic better than anyone could have! Great job Mike!

Tim

[gb387]

It is difficult at first trying to keep the foam pad flat against the surface. As a result, a lot of people tilt the pad which can create the buffer tails you see above. Therefore, keep that pad flat!

That is my problem... I try very hard not to but I find myself tilting the buffer up on egde a little all the time and thats why I have not moved to a vehciles finish quite yet.

[Tim Lingor]

Hey gb387

You will get the hang of it!!!

Tim