Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

[OctaneGuy]

I worked on a black 2007 Corvette a few weeks ago. It was 3 days old and suffered from severe water spots from sprinkler system at a hotel on the drive home from Kentucky where he picked it up from.

The owner took the car to a local car wash detailing place in Newport Beach when he returned, they used a rotary buffer and Gold Class Clear Coat wax to try to remove the spots! When I got the car---the spots were still there, not to mention plenty of holograms, light swirls, and pigtail gouges.

I worked on the car for over 12 hours--clayed, rotary buffed with M80 and W8006 pad. Finished with M82 and W9006 pad on rotary, then to PC, then with Prima Epic wax. The result was pretty great. The customer was very pleased.

A week later, he noticed in the sunlight on a transition on the hood that there were still some visible spots. I wasn't surprised, since it was an area I would have been pretty careful about with the buffer. He brought it over to my Saturday clinic, and I carefully buffed the area to his satisfaction--checking the work both under sunlight and indoors with the Dual Xenon swirl finder light.

Then last night I get a call that he's out to dinner and is shocked to see all of the water spots "reappear" or maybe never disappeared on the car again.

The paint is smooth to the touch. It's been clayed with blue clay and rotary buffed and PC'd, and you can't see them (I did a test spot with a tape line to check my initial work and you could clearly see the water spots were removed from the polished area).

The owner is returning tomorrow for me to take another stab. Because I've cleaned the surface and worked it with a paint cleaner, and removed all the above surface and below surface defects, I'm thinking that my only next option is to go even more aggressive, and see if going to a cutting pad--W7006 and either M83 or M84 Compound will knock these "ghosts" out for sure.

Please don't suggest using Vinegar to remove the spots--as I don't believe these traces are on the surface of the paint.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

Really bad shot of the water spots--I had a hard time photographing them. Was easy to see by the naked eye, but photographing them was difficult.


After it was all polished out

[TrufflePig]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

this is probably a stupid response, but maybe its a paint defect at the paint stage.

could it be possible?

those pics are hard to tell what exactly. sounds like you did everything possible.

will wet sanding do the trick?

[OctaneGuy]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

I doubt it, only because the spots he is seeing are in the same location as the water spots were. This customer is one of the most anal I've ever had. He's a great guy, but he admits to being super anal---we're talking about a 3 or 6 incher here, not a 2 footer.

What I've done in the past on difficult paint jobs is to work at night. Actually, it's an idea I've been meaning to execute at my shop. To set up a tent of sorts that would allow me to work in complete darkness lit only by a small halogen light. If you can make the paint look flawless in complete darkness under a point light source, then it's going to look great no matter where you look at it.

The trouble with these water spots is if you shine a light source on the paint--it tends to blow them out--so you have to observe them at a steep angle to the side and look carefully along the panel to see them. It's next to impossible to buff something you can't see.



Richard

this is probably a stupid response, but maybe its a paint defect at the paint stage.

could it be possible?

those pics are hard to tell what exactly. sounds like you did everything possible.

will wet sanding do the trick?

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

Steel wool will get those suckers out!

All joking aside, have your tried Solo and the yellow Solo wool pad? I haven't come accross this problem before, but this Solo combination has taken care of some pesky problems that I've ran across. The newer Vette's that I've come across tend to be pretty difficult to remove defects. Could it be that the clear is just tough as nails?


Nick

[the other pc]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

Since you've polished the surface smooth and the spots are still visible it's pretty safe to assume that it's some kind of staining, where the paint itself has been chemically changed. That would be another form of below surface defect but chemical, not mechanical like a scratch or pit. The critical issue is how deep it goes. I have some of these on 30 year old single stage enamel that are just too deep to remove.

The #80/W8006 combo you've already tried is still pretty mild. Hopefully the #83 or #84 will work. I don't know if I'd go a lot stronger, especially on a car where you can't gauge the film thickness.


PC.

[OctaneGuy]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

Being a Corvette, my electronic thickness gauge is useless. Just wish I had some better news for the customer. Guess I'll do a little test to find out.

Richard

Since you've polished the surface smooth and the spots are still visible it's pretty safe to assume that it's some kind of staining, where the paint itself has been chemically changed. That would be another form of below surface defect but chemical, not mechanical like a scratch or pit. The critical issue is how deep it goes. I have some of these on 30 year old single stage enamel that are just too deep to remove.

The #80/W8006 combo you've already tried is still pretty mild. Hopefully the #83 or #84 will work. I don't know if I'd go a lot stronger, especially on a car where you can't gauge the film thickness.


PC.

[RamAirV1]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

#83, with the PC, and if it takes too long getting them out with that use the Makita. I have removed water spots that bad off my black WS6 TA (GM paint, similar to the Vette) with #83 and the PC. It just takes a long long time to get them out using the PC. IMHO #80 is not strong enough to remove water spot etching. You will probably need to follow up the #83 with some #80 as the #83 may leave some micro-marring in the GM paint.

I have 300 Watt clear incandescent bulbs in the ceiling of my garage, and they show up every possible defect in the paint. No need to buff in the dark with a Xenon flashlight.

RamAirV1

[OctaneGuy]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

The buffing in the dark comment was really meant for working on light paints like silver that just get blown out with more lighting. That doesn't happen to you??

Richard

#83, with the PC, and if it takes too long getting them out with that use the Makita. I have removed water spots that bad off my black WS6 TA (GM paint, similar to the Vette) with #83 and the PC. It just takes a long long time to get them out using the PC. IMHO #80 is not strong enough to remove water spot etching. You will probably need to follow up the #83 with some #80 as the #83 may leave some micro-marring in the GM paint.

I have 300 Watt clear incandescent bulbs in the ceiling of my garage, and they show up every possible defect in the paint. No need to buff in the dark with a Xenon flashlight.

RamAirV1

[kellyinkc]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

How about some MPPC?

[RamAirV1]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

The buffing in the dark comment was really meant for working on light paints like silver that just get blown out with more lighting. That doesn't happen to you??

Richard

No. Another thing that would be good is fluorescent lighting. It shows defects very well too. Just makes things easier, that's all.

How about some MPPC?

That is a very good suggestion. MPPC works amazingly well, and you can use it by hand or with the PC. It has done very well on bird dropping etch marks, and when you think about it, water spots are similar once they are etched into the paint. If you have some that is definitely worth a try.

RamAirV1

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

Hey Richard,


Do you have any other shots of the marring? Can you place an object on the paint so that the camera can focus on it and hopefully capture the marks?

I would really like to see a better photo if possible. I need to see if what you are seeing is indeed water spot etchings that have penetrated deep into the CC or if it is a paint defect that is under the CC.

Vette's from my experience have paint as hard as glass. Perhaps, you did not remove enough of the defect and the finishing/sealing product you used merely covered it up?


Tim

[Stevens Detailing]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

I would 85 with the 7006 pad at about 1400 rpm then 83,8006 same speed then evaluate before moving on from there - the spots obviouslly eched the paint. Vettes swirl easy cause the material gets hot fast so always buff them at lower speeds. just my thoughts. good luck.

[Chex]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

I would really like to see a better photo if possible. I need to see if what you are seeing is indeed water spot etchings that have penetrated deep into the CC or if it is a paint defect that is under the CC.

Vette's from my experience have paint as hard as glass. Perhaps, you did not remove enough of the defect and the finishing/sealing product you used merely covered it up?

I haven't detailed a vette but would like to someday. but a thing I do agree with Tim is that one of these two probabilities is true.

Water spots are reaaaalllyyyy stubborn sometimes, so maybe you can do the aggressiveness scale buffing, which would be to try with the PC M83 and the w8006, then RB M83 and the W8000, RB M83 and W7000, and stepping up with the advice of being careful, because if these marks were caused by acid water, then it might happen to be that it's a non removable defect.

Maybe some times old stuff said in the videos is ignored, but Have you thought of using a magnifying glass to evaluate the defect? I remembered this was shown in the PES101 video that Megs sells and though I haven't used it to evaluate my defects, it could be very helpful in this particular situation.

Hope This Helps.

[autocare]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

Richard have you given the though that these spots are reappearing because the hard mineral deposits are still in the paint and even though you have polished them out and they look like they are gone, as time progresses the minerals start to do their work again and start etching the paint again. The heat, moisture will revive the hard minerals and get them going. You need to use a chemical cleaner to get the minerals neutralized and out of the paint. Try the ABC wash.

[OctaneGuy]

Re: Severe Water Spot Ghosts--Ideas???

Just wanted to say thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I ended up solving the problem by compounding the spots out using M84 and a W7006 pad.

I just wanted to clarify that the reason I had chosen to use M80 on the Vette was to fix the defects caused by the first detailer---the holograms and various scratches and gouges instilled by him. I did also use M83 with the rotary on various spots. But according to my test spot, that was as aggressive as needed to solve the problem.

The biggest problem wasn't removing the spots, but rather seeing them in the first place so they could be removed. Once the customer found a consistent way of viewing them and showed them to me, I just buffed them out one by one.

If compounding hadn't worked, I would have resorted to wetsanding the area, but fortunately in this case, that was the best solution.

Richard