#83 Problems, or "I wanna be like Mike!"

[Jimmy Buffit]

I've been using #83 DACP for quite sometime, with great results. My method WAS to use my Fein rotary (1500 RPM) with a 7 1/2" wool pad. I would typically spur the wool pad after each panel Results were predictable and satisfying, and the ability to rectify moderate to medium defects was quite good.. The downside to this process was the micromarring/swirling introduced by the wool pad. A second pass over the entire car was usually required (PC, finishing pad with a fine polish) to obtain the "perfect shine".

I've used this procedure on hundreds of cars, and have developed quite a little reputation in my little corner of the world. Sure, it leaves a fair amount of dust, but terrific results!

So, I watched Mike Phillips (at Autopia Day at Meguiar's) get comparable results, QUICKER! Well, I'm all about time and efficiency, so, being an openminded, forward thinking kinda guy, I decided to adopt his tools and technique, and to make it work in a 'production' environment of my shop.

Hey, it is a chance to eliminate one complete pass around the car, and save at least 30 minutes per car…

So, here comes my dilemma…

I replaced the large (6" ?) backing plate on the rotary with the small (3 1/2" ?) plate from Meguiar's (thanks Mike & Lynn). I put my big, honkin, old school 7 1/2" wool pads away. Implemented the 6" yellow pad from Meg's. Of course, I've stayed with the reliable #83 DACP.

My first attempt, using the same pressure and number of passes, was at my customary 1500 RPM on the Fein. I experienced smearing, splattering and 'glazing' (buildup) of the product. Clearly, the combination was building up too much heat… I backed the Fein off to the lowest setting (800 ?) and made sure to spur the pad frequently. Some improvement, the product began to work as expected, but…

After using this new procedure on 5 vehicles (I'm determined to make it work for me!) I'm still having problem with some (smaller) amount of smearing and splattering. This requires an additional cleanup step (that stuff doesn't just wipe right off!). So far, I'm not sure that I've made a net gain in timesaving. Great overall results, to be sure, but the operator is getting frustrated because "I wanna be like Mike…"

Who's got the magic bullet?

Thanks for taking the time to read this, I look forward to some valuable assistance.

Jiim

[SpoiledMan]

Well Jim, I have to say that I also bought into the 6" pads on the rotary because of how I saw "Magic Mike" work his wonder on the cars at detail day. While I haven't had the opportunity to try the combination out yet, I'm glad to know that it wasn't just me that was in awe!! "Magic Mike" is the first person that I have seen use a rotary with ONE HAND!

What Mike usually does for product application is to lay a strip of product onto the finish and then buff it in. My technique has been to add product to the pad and then smear it around on the surface with the pad and slowly start the buffer while quickly spreading product over my intended surface. This seems to get me the least splatter. The one hand thing, well lets just say I will have to practice that!

[SpoiledMan]

Jim, I should add that my experience so far has been with a B&D rotary (Dewalt) and the 8" Meguiar's pads.

[Tim Lingor]

Hey Jim,

It is hard to get around product splatter, but it is possible. You need to be able to pick the product up off the paint's surface. I am sure Mike used that method. It is not an easy step to master!

As for #83, I like to use the rotary at 1750 rpm. I also make sure to prime the pad with a large "X". If the pad is too dry, too much heat builds up causing the product to break down too soon. As a result, it gums up on the surface. After the aforementioned "X", I lay a thick strip of product on the paint ~ 6-8" in length for each 2'X2' panel. (Too much product can cause the gumming up as well)

Another trick I use, is that if the surface temperature is warm or if the humidity is high, I will sometimes spray a light mist of #34 Final Inspection on the paint's surface that is to be buffed. This acts as a lubricant and allows more time buffing before the product breaks down. BUT, be warned: this causes even more splatter!

How are you cleaning your foam pads? I like to use a plastic brush and clean the pads after each panel. If the product starts to gum up really bad on some sections of paint, your pad may be over-saturated with product. In that case, you may need to switch to a clean pad. On a normal sized car, when using #83 DACP, I will probably use 2-3 Polishing Pads.

I hope this helps!

Tim

[Superior Shine]

My best guess is that you may be using a little too much product.

I use a heavier amount at first to "season" the foam pad then I reduce the amount I work with. Also move the pad across the surface slow enough for the product to work but quick enough as not to build up too much heat.

If none of that works have your client send their cars to me I could use the extra work.

[Jimmy Buffit]

Well, I've learned to 'season' the pad. I'm actually using less product, with better results. But...

It still smears, so I add a little QD. I am, as suggested, using 3-4 pads per car - that's new to me. Fortunately, I jus received 12 new pads from Meg's.

I have to wipe each panel with 50/50 iso... to remove the residue/haze, before applying an LSP. Eight vehicles so far, and I'm dragging - certainly not saving time!

Oh, I appreciate the advice from my most credible brethern here...

I just don't (yet) see the glow of the 'Magic Bullit".

I'll keep 'perfecting' this routine until I hit 15 cars, I think that's a fair trial...

I'll take anybody's comments...

Jim

[Chubs]

Hey Jim,
I've had that problem and still do when I start to rush things. and I hate to do that. perfect results takes time. But I was at a Meg class a year ago from the local rep. He said to lay a 6-8 inch line of product down on the car and run across it with your rotary from 10 to 2 on the pad while just taping the trigger button. then while still taping the trigger start spreading it around your 2X2 area. It's been working great for me. And always spur your pads alot. I also like the Idea of spray wax to season too. I'll have to try that one. I hope this can help!

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

Not spray wax but rather #34 Final Inspection. Like I said, it will give more buffing time before the product breaks down. But it does create more splatter.

Jim,

Perhaps, increase your speed to 1750 RPM. If you are still getting smears, then I think you are using too much product. The product should buff to just a light dust/residue and remove very easily.

My only other question, what are you doing to the paint before the #83 DACP? I am wondering if there is something like claying residue being left behind. Before I go to the #83 stage, I always wipe down the whole vehicle with #34 FI. That way, if there is any residue left, it should be removed.

Please keep us posted!!

Tim

[Jimmy Buffit]

Well, I'm still trying, I guess I get points for that! I'm almost thru a gallon of #83!

There are times when it works just fine, of course, but I seldom get to the point where it starts to dust, so maybe I just need to work it longer. I am leary of 'dry buffing' , but I'll experiment with that today.

It is not likely to be a result of clay residue. as I wash/rinse pretty well. Plus, I don't clay every panel, on every car...

I should take time to mention that the various vehicles have been pretty darn nice by the time they left.

The saga continues...

Jim

[Tim Lingor]

Hey Jim,

I am sure the vehicles you detail look great!

Hang in there! Try the higher speed (1750 RPM) and try to buff a little longer, but do not dry buff. Maybe take a halogen light and angle it on to the paint so that you can keep an eye on the amount of residue remaining on the surface. We are going to figure this out!


Tim

[Jimmy Buffit]

It is getting better.

I use so much light, from so many angles, some people think I should wear a welding mask!

Today I cranked my Fein "all the way up" to #3, thinking that might be around 1750 (no time to find no stinkin' manual...) I used a little less product, moved the buffer a 'little' faster, and got better results.

Little, if any, splattering. Oh, I'm not talking about that newbie kind of startup splatter, what I was getting is from product migrating to the edge of the pad, and then just starting to sling, everywhere! Just when it was beginnig to accomplish something!

FYI, I have decreased the amount of product, learned to spur the pad more frequently, and increased the speed of the rotary. Most of this is contrary to my previous 'old school' wool pad experience. And probably explains why it has taken me so long to reach a comfort level with this process...

I think I'm quite close to my goal of having #83 DACP be my '1 step' polish (in most situations) Thanks to all for bearing with me... I think I'm close to 28 cars in this odessey!

WHO says I'm obsessive? I don't have time to be obssesive! Well, maybe a little...

Hope some one learned from all of this.

I did.

Jim

Oh, by the way, my Fein rotary, with the small backing plate and a 6.5" pad, weighs just about 2 oz more than a comparable PC! Really very easy to work with... makes a big difference at the end of a long day!

That may have been my biggest motivation to 'perfect' this long process!

[SpoiledMan]

Hey Jim, maybe we are related in some way. Today I detailed a dark blue newer model Saab. That has to be the hardest paint on the planet. DACP on the PC wouldn't touch it cranked all the way up to 6!! Had to pull out the Big Dog (Black & Decker) and the polishing pad. I used the 6" Meg's polishing pad and DACP at about 1400 RPM and that got a little something done. I was still having to do two runs on each panel to get where I was trying to go. Anyways, about half way through the job, I got confident enough to try the one hand thing. Worked like a charm. With the confidence up, I decided to try and lay a strip of DACP and pick it up. Sucked it right in and spread it nice and even. I could See Mike P smiling at me in the reflection off the dark blue hood of the Saab!!

I'm glad we BOTH learned something!!

[Tim Lingor]

Hey Jim,

I am glad to hear that you are having more success with the #83 DACP!!

I know what you mean about sling! I have used a rotary for close to 15 years and I still get some sling!


Tim