What does Micro-Marring look like?

[BJClarke001]

Hey,

I did a search in the Galleries to see if I could find a picture of Micro-Marring (heck, I am not even sure if I am spelling it correct here). I did find pictures for marring but I am not sure if it is refering to the same thing. I think I know what it is but I would like to see it and if someone has a picture that I could see (or at least direct me to it). I assume it looks like a scuff mark on the surface of the paint left behind from a Buffer/DA.

[Ranger72]

Micro marring caused by using the DA polisher incorrectly (buffing not long enough, too large and area, too agressive of a product, not going mulitple directions, go well over 20 lbs of preasure on the head, ...) looks like (need to see it in some sort of light, whether overhead, sunlight, xenon) little tinny even distributed circles. Kind of like a circular pigtail. Its hard for me to describe but I think you can get the idea. If I have time I will cause then on finish and takea picture of it.
ALso, when using a rotary with poor technique micromarring isnt the best term, buffer swirl, or hologram is better.

[BJClarke001]

Well, I used the DA last night on my neighbors car. This was my first attempt using #83 and #80. All other times, I have used the deep crystal stuff with the DA. I did see what appeared to be just what you described. But, I am not sure if they were there before I started or I actually did it. I am thinking I did do it and is why I am on here to see what they are and what is it I did wrong to prevent it. I do recall pushing with pressure the DA when I was doing the #83 DACP. I think the paint was hard and so, I was pushing it hard to "Quicken" the results. Which BTW did do a great job except I now wonder about these Micro-Mars. To me, they almost look like tiny etched water spots. But not full circle and maybe thats where the explanation of pig tail shape comes from.

I remember reading a long time ago on here that we should (I am using my memory here so I could be wrong) put about 15 pounds of pressure on the head. I think it was the write up Mike did where he was using a scale to illustrate how much pressure. In another more recent thread, I think I read something about 5 pounds of pressure. So either I am mixing something up on my own or there is conflicting information on the subject. When I have time, I will find the threads and paste them in here. Don't get me wrong here, all I am doing is trying to learn and my neighbors car is a beater where I can experiment.

I did do the horizontal and vertical polishing method (cross hatching polishing), I am just thinking I pushed it too hard perhaps, and put these marks in it. So, with that, is everyone putting light pressure (5 pounds) when they are trying to remove swirls with the DA? Or am I missing something?

[Superior Shine]

Micro-marring -

[BJClarke001]

Oh, that isn't what I am seeing. Maybe I didn't do anything and what I am seeing is actually tiny water spot etching. What I was seeing kinda reminded me of the scratches you get in wood working where if you use an orbital sander, you kinda get these circle spots. Oh well, I guess maybe I need to try another spot on the car and make sure there not there before I start to make sure. Thanks for the responses thus far.

P.S. Thanks Joe for the pictures. Worth a thousand words for sure.

[Ranger72]

BJClarke001, that is micro marring caused from a rotary buffer, marring from a DA is different, like you are describing but only observable in certain light/ angles.

[BJClarke001]

Originally posted by Ranger72
BJClarke001, that is micro marring caused from a rotary buffer, marring from a DA is different, like you are describing but only observable in certain light/ angles.

Dang. So maybe I did do it then. So let me ask this then: How much pressure should I be putting on it? I know this is a hard question to answer. I guess maybe we can talk in the level of a compressed 8006 polishing pad? Like, is more then half compression way too much? I think I may have gone even more then half last night. This is something I have to monitor next time and maybe no one looks at the amount of compression, but it is the only indicator I can think of outside of using the bathroom scale as Mike stated in another thread.

[Accumulator]

IMO, and the way I use the term, "micromarring" really *is* micro- "very small, minute". Barely visible with the naked eye and only visible under certain lighting conditions. Not even close to what Superior Shine's pics show. Not trying to :argue: BTW, but rather clarify since the term "micromarring" gets used a lot. The stuff in those pics would be "regular marring" to me, or even *worse*. Heh heh, glad I'm not a pro, I'd hate to deal with something like that!

When I refer to "micromarring", I'd say that most people would say the finish is perfect. Often, I can't get people to see what I'm talking about even when they're standing right there looking at it.

The "how much pressure" question will depend on the paint (hardness especially), product, etc. But I've found that when you start to apply a lot of pressure you often prevent the G-100 from doing a true "d/a" motion, rather, it just "jiggles". You can avoid this "bogging down" to some extent by using 4" pads.

Note that as you press down more and more, the action of the machine seems to change. Try marking a line on the back of a light colored pad and watch its movement as you press down harder and harder.

If you're leaving light marring from using the d/a properly, it's almost always just a matter of having used a harsh product. Follow up with a milder product and use it until the problem is gone. Seems like very few people get a truly ready-to-wax finish using #83 with the G-100, for instance. Follow up with #80, and maybe do more than one pass.

[Ranger72]

click me to help out!!!
This will help you dtermine how much presure to apply. I tend to lighten up as I buff with either Da or Rotary.

[rusty bumper]

Originally posted by BJClarke001
What I was seeing kinda reminded me of the scratches you get in wood working where if you use an orbital sander, you kinda get these circle spots.

Sounds to me like your pad might need a good brushing due to product build-up, or you've caught something between the pad and the finish. (Which could be some trapped dusting residue too, as DACP will tend to dust up some)

DACP will tend to build up residue on the outside edges of a buffing pad when used with a G100......I like to brush the pad surface often when using a product like this, and it might be a good idea to wipe the panel with Final Inspection before rebuffing again.

Like Accumulator said, you can follow up with # 80, or #82 and it should remove this type of marring.

As for my definition of micro-marring, I always thought it was kind of a dull haze on the finish that was preventing the true reflection of the clear coat from shining through.

But I guess micro-marring can mean different things to different people.

[BJClarke001]

Originally posted by Rusty Bumper

As for my definition of micro-marring, I always thought it was kind of a dull haze on the finish that was preventing the true reflection of the clear coat from shining through.

But I guess micro-marring can mean different things to different people.

Rusty,

That's is somewhat my point. And depending on the various definitions, the why did it happens and how to fix may vary. I think we should address them here in this thread to be able to consolidate the various types of Micro-Marring if it is true that there is more then one version.

Ranger72 & Accumulator,

I thank you for your information and now it is making me think a little more. The link Ranger72 provided is the one I was thinking about where Mike was stating to put 15-20 pounds of pressure on the DA. What is confusing me is the head of the DA stops spinning at about 2 pounds maybe and I am getting more of an orbital action with no head spin. So maybe here also, we can talk about that. I thought I totally understood this before jumping into it. Just remember, I am trying to learn here.

[Ranger72]

BJClarke001, I know you said you went in mulitple directions, but was your arm speed slow? How big was your work area? Did you work the product untill it was broken completely? The DA takes time break product down because its oscilating action is so gentle.

[BJClarke001]

Originally posted by Ranger72
BJClarke001, I know you said you went in mulitple directions, but was your arm speed slow? How big was your work area? Did you work the product untill it was broken completely? The DA takes time break product down because its oscilating action is so gentle.

Ranger72,

Thanks for the quick response. Yes, actually, I worked in 12"X12" areas then maybe 16"X16" because the pads are 6 1/2" (W-8006 Polishing Pad) and 1 foot square was too tight for me. At first, I got carried away and was probably doing a medium arm speed. Then I remembered that it was to be slow arm speed. The amount of time spent on the area was less then I expected. I buffed till the #83 became almost like paste wax looks when applied to the finish (but not dried yet). When you first start out, #83 is thin and doing swipe test continually while buffing indicated to me when it was starting to go drier (not dry but thicker).

Just don't get me wrong, the finish came out great (except some pig tails seen only at odd angles) and I did follow it up with #80. I may or may not have done the micro-marring. I think I did everything that I read on here and now question the amount of pressure and when to lessen that pressure (at what point). Rusty stated that the pad edges could have been dried out with product. I dont think that happened but now I know (thanks Rusty) it is something else to watch for more closely.

I think it was Accumulator that said something about not putting too much pressure on the head to keep it spinning (BTW: Thanks for the tip using a permenent marker on the top side of pad). I think it stops spinning at about 1-2 pounds. So which way is right? Perhaps it is a progression thing where you start out with heavy pressure, re-apply and use medium pressure, re-apply and use light?

[Accumulator]

Originally posted by BJClarke001
I think it was Accumulator that said something about not putting too much pressure on the head to keep it spinning (BTW: Thanks for the tip using a permenent marker on the top side of pad). I think it stops spinning at about 1-2 pounds. So which way is right? Perhaps it is a progression thing where you start out with heavy pressure, re-apply and use medium pressure, re-apply and use light?

That's the, uhm, "issue" with using the PC for correction. When you apply enough pressure to make it effective it doesn't really work the way it's "supposed to". When you don't apply pressure the PC/G-100 is often too mild to do any real correction. So what *should* you do Heh heh, short answer: get a rotary for the hard work

Plenty of people apply lots of pressure and do OK. Otherwise, plan on spending a *lot* of time on this, as in hours per panel if you have hard paint. But IMO it's a real compromise at best- if you ever try the 4" pads you'll see what I mean If using a rotary isn't an option, get a small backing plate and 4" pads for the most aggressive work.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Superior Shine
Micro-marring -

I think these would fall more into the category of buffer swirls or cobweb-effect...

I'll try to induce some micro-marring and then take a picture of it...