Help, Mike Phillips !

[beefy z]

Mike , please help ! i believe i have done everything right yet wound up with a ton of SCRATCHES on the finished products. did all three family cars, using all new products MF, DA, clay etc for the first time. all 3 finishes came out fantastic; wet & mirror like but it seems i put a ton of scratches into the finish. you can't feel any of them so at least that's good, but where in the process will most scratches occur ?

• * i used a lambs wool mitt for wash,
  * 2 buckets,
  * clayed when wet
  * washed again
  * Absorber dried
  * DC 1 on all
  * NO 83 as the finishes are all in good condition
  * 80
  * then 81 using DA w/ new 8006/9006 @ low speeds and * didn't allow it to dry
  * followed by either DC3 or NXT.
  * polished /buffed w/ combination of ultimate wipes & * Costco MFs which have been recommended on other sites.

scratches are evident when looking at angle or straight down on all flats;hood,roof and trunk. now i will have to use the 83 next time but i don't want to install anymore scratches. what did i do wrong ?

[LnkPrkSoldier]

well this may be it... here are the options that could have happened. there was dirt and stuff that was left on there maybe from not such a thorough job on claying. run your hand over the paint while your hand it in a plastic baggy, do you feel bumps? reclay that section. was there a lot of dirt on the pad? that may have caused some scratches. and lastly, which i think is most likely, is that those scratches were already there, but since you removed the swirls , which is thousands of minor scratches , the larger scratches that were there already stand out more than before. it is possible to remove those scratches depending on the severity. good luck! oh and...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Help, Mike Phillips !

Originally posted by beefy z
Mike , please help ! i believe i have done everything right yet wound up with a ton of SCRATCHES on the finished products. did all three family cars, using all new products MF, DA, clay etc for the first time. all 3 finishes came out fantastic; wet & mirror like but it seems i put a ton of scratches into the finish. you can't feel any of them so at least that's good, but where in the process will most scratches occur ?

• * i used a lambs wool mitt for wash,
  * 2 buckets,
  * clayed when wet
  * washed again
  * Absorber dried
  * DC 1 on all
  * NO 83 as the finishes are all in good condition
  * 80
  * then 81 using DA w/ new 8006/9006 @ low speeds and * didn't allow it to dry
  * followed by either DC3 or NXT.
  * polished /buffed w/ combination of ultimate wipes & * Costco MFs which have been recommended on other sites.

scratches are evident when looking at angle or straight down on all flats;hood,roof and trunk. now i will have to use the 83 next time but i don't want to install anymore scratches. what did i do wrong ?

Hi beefy z,

We need to trouble shoot this, so first a couple of questions...

1. What do the scratches look like? As in are they tiny circles like a pigs tail? Or straight lines? Or something else? This will help us to isolate the cause.


2. Are you absolutely positive the scratches were not in the finish to start with? Here's where I'm going with this...

Often times when you machine clean and polish paint using the dual action polisher and a cleaner/polish like the M80 Speed Glaze, the M80 Speed Glaze will remove all the shallow, fine scratches but leave behind all the deeper scratches. Now that the hundreds and thousands of shallow scratches have been removed, the deep scratches that remain will stand out like a sore thumb.

By removing the light/shallow scratches you will have enabled your eyes to clearly see the remaining defects.

Could this be the problem?


3. If you feel the above is not the real issue, then when you clayed the car while it was wet, was this after you completely rinsed the car after washing? Some people have washed their car and clayed it at the same time without properly rinsing the dirt off and this has resulted in dirt being trapped in the clay bar and thus instilling scratches in the finish.

Did you turn your clay bar over and inspect it while claying? If so, did you ever see any dirt or abrasive particles?

Let's start with the above questions and your answers and then go from there.

[beefy z]

what went wrong ?

Thanks mike for your help & expertise, and patience !
1) scratches are mostly singular 1-3'' long with an occassional bunches of straight line scratches as if i was wet sanding which i was not.in that area finish seems dulled a bit. almost ALL straight; no circles.after i got through w/80 w/da, i can almost swear didn't see anything. ditto after i waxed, and incidently in all cases wax was applied/removed by hand ! these things became evident a few days after the process.
2)I am pretty positive scratches weren't in paint before i started. This was my first time out w/da and i was attempting to remove some swirls. i didn't get all of them but removed/lightened enough to gain some confidence and will try again in the future. it looked like 80 would get them all without opting for the 83 but i didn't want to push it too hard first time out.
3) No; i completely rinsed off first;first w/spray & then took nozzle off & let water cascade down. then clayed using plenty of QD on clay & panel. clayed fender,folded clay, clayed door, folded clay, clayed half hood, folded clay etc etc. didn't see/feel any grit.clay was removing stuff & did have some black spots,but then i would fold it.i never dropped the clay. finish was smooth as glass when finished. BUT, you have me thinking about the clay, was i working too large an area ? should i have folded more often ?
incidently i did that rub test on a CD with the lambs wool mitt; dulled/blurred the cd. the ultimate wipes/costco MFs seemed to make some minor lines but nothing like i installed on my finish. if i had to venture a guess, i thought it was my MFs as i will work them to remove polish/wax.
SORRY..no pics yet.still working on that but will have to do it if i can't get this licked.

[BlkBear]

Re: what went wrong ?

Howdy Beefyz,

I washed my car today and clayed it as well. (and it rained of course as I was finishing up with the clay work).

One of the things I noticed when I was using a brand new washing mit, is that it had a couple of plastic tabs in it (the kind used to hold things to cardboard display packaging or to ship several things together to keep them in a bunch). Sometimes when the cardboard is removed the little plastic tabs stay in the items, especally if their cloth or fabric.

A few of my towels had these as well, so I made it a point of checking the rest if my washing supplies, to make sure there wasn't anything attached to them that might scratch the paint while washing. I also removed any labels or tags from all of my towels and my mits.

Just a thought for a possible source for your scratches.

[roushstage2]

Definately check for those things. I also always look at all of my towels after washing them to make sure that no stuff got stuck in them in the washer.

[beefy z]

scratches

thanks guys for your suggestions. i did another car and noticed i got the scratches AGAIN. but on this one i did not use the da. so i know it's not my da technique. and i didn't use the paint cleaner either. so that leaves either the MFs or the clay and i'm inclined to believe its the claying. but that's really depressing. claying left the finish better than new ! i thought the clay was suppossed to remove the surface contaminants, not cause additional problems. what is one suppossed to do about this ? change the clay after every panel ? or only use it on 1 job & then get rid of it ? kinda expensive. so what good is it if you really get a smooth finish after claying only to find a million fine scratches. anyone else ever have this problem ? what do i do now, 83 it ? which brings me to another point. all my paint jobs must be "hard" because it takes alot of work to remove the swirls. if that's so, how come hard paint gets scratched so easily ?

[RLdetail]

Probably the towels you bought!!

I bought some mf towels at wally world last year after hearing all the hype about them. I didn't buy the cheap ones there either. They were about $8 for three of them.

Anyways, I noticed after I removed the scratches and waxed my wife's car that there appeared to be tiny scratches in a some spots all over the car. I removed them again and re-waxed and there were still scratches.

I came to the conclusion that it was the towels and I then washed the towels in the washer and let them air dry. They seem to not scratch the paint anymore or at least not as bad that I can see them but the swirls have gotten really bad so it's hard to tell!

It may seem steep to spend $6 for a mf towel but you will not have any problems with them.(I hope!)

Moral of the story is pay for the good stuff the first time and enjoy the rewards or don't and pay the price over time.

Needless to say I have invested in A LOT of Meguiars products within the last couple weeks to take care of my own problems! Just awaiting some packages!!

[RamAirV1]

Any time you try a new product, such as clay or a MF towel. Always stop and check your work after doing a small section. And check it under good lighting. That is the best way to spot a faulty product or procedure. And if something is wrong, the damage will be limited to a small area.

Also, it is not necessary to wash the car again after claying. All you are doing is increasing your opportunity for scratches. If there was clay residue on the car, normal washing will not remove it anyways, you would either have to re-clay that area or use a dedicated paint cleaner.

Do you clay in straight line motions? What is the pattern of the scratches? This may give you a clue. Do you use circular motions when you wax? Do you have circular scratches?

I would ditch the Costco MFs and get some Ultimate Wipes and/or Supreme Shine Microfibers from Meguiars. They are well worth the price and they have never caused scratches for me.

RamAirV1

[BlkBear]

Re: scratches

Originally posted by beefy z
thanks guys for your suggestions. i did another car and noticed i got the scratches AGAIN. but on this one i did not use the da. so i know it's not my da technique. and i didn't use the paint cleaner either. so that leaves either the MFs or the clay and i'm inclined to believe its the claying. but that's really depressing. claying left the finish better than new ! i thought the clay was suppossed to remove the surface contaminants, not cause additional problems. what is one suppossed to do about this ? change the clay after every panel ? or only use it on 1 job & then get rid of it ? kinda expensive. so what good is it if you really get a smooth finish after claying only to find a million fine scratches. anyone else ever have this problem ?

I clayed my Civic today (first time I used clay). The place I bought the clay had three different grades of clay, Fine (Mild), Medium and Aggressive. So the clay you bought, was it any grade other than mild/fine?

I pretty much did what you did when I clayed the car, clean fold, clean fold...started at the roof, trunk, hood doors and then the lower part of the doors and bumpers were last, just in case they were really cruddy. Working from the "cleaner to the dirtier" ... areas of the car. Helps I hope reduce the chance of picking up too much crude and wiping it on more visible areas of the paint.

My piece of clay stayed pretty clean, until I cleaned the hood and front bumper/ grill area, now that piece will be used on the lower parts of the car and wheels from now on.

And yes it's kinda spendy, but if you cut it up in to three or four pieces, it should last you a while.

Good luck in hunting down the cause of the scratches. Keep us updated...

[roushstage2]

I was reading what you first said and I have a question, stupid as it is. I noticed you said you clayed it when it was wet from washing, but did you use QD to lubricate the clay when you were doing it?

[Ranger72]

Originally posted by roushstage2
I was reading what you first said and I have a question, stupid as it is. I noticed you said you clayed it when it was wet from washing, but did you use QD to lubricate the clay when you were doing it?

DEFINITLEY! All of the detail sprays have much higher lubricity (not sure if that is the correct way to say that) but the water wont lubricate the paint as well as a detail spray. Also, think back, have you ever dropped your clay bar on the ground or in a dirty area?

[beefy z]

thanks all for input...
to bear; all tabs on everything removed & megs clay bar was cut up into 3 pieces.QD used freely.
RL & Ram Air; i will try working a smaller section & watching for any new "damage". about the costco MFs; alot of guys on autopia recommended them & alot even went so far to state that ALL MFs are the same. i'm not ready to buy into that yet but i do use megs ultimates & anymore i buy in the future will be megs only. i will also try washing them first and then working a smaller area checking for those scratches, the scratches are mostly straight or oval lines. now i polish or wax mostly in circular motion so i'm still inclined to believe that i'm either getting these scratches in contaminated clay or when i'm wiping down w/the MFs. Incidently when is the proper time to change clay bars ? do you feel it contaminated; is it full of black spots or what ????
INCIDENTLY, had some good luck today when i went after those scratches in 1 of my cars. used the 83@ 4 1/2 and worked the area w/slow passes. then 80,then a12. the scratches were gone ! and the finish looked better & wetter after using the 83/80/a12 then it did using the 80/81/a12. so at least i feel what i did the first time out was not fatal,annoying but not fatal. its looks like ultimately i will be able to get these scratches out;just more work. i now have to use all of your suggestions above & try & determine what put them there to begin with. hopefully, i'll be able to tell you all & even get some pictures in here to prove it. keep suggesting guys. its nice to know there are other "nuts" like me who take this work & effort seriously

[Katsumoru]

You can try rubbing your towels on the bottom of a blank CD and checking to see if it scratches. I had been getting swirls on my car and tried this on all my towels, only to find that none of them were scratching. However, when I did it with my wash mitt, the CD became covered in scratches.

It may not be a perfect way to tell but it should at least give you an idea.

[BlkBear]

Good idea

Originally posted by Katsumoru
You can try rubbing your towels on the bottom of a blank CD and checking to see if it scratches. I had been getting swirls on my car and tried this on all my towels, only to find that none of them were scratching. However, when I did it with my wash mitt, the CD became covered in scratches.

It may not be a perfect way to tell but it should at least give you an idea.

You just gave me an idea on how to use all those AOL CDs that show up in the mail and the odd magazine! Scratch testing towels, mits and body brushes.

Might also be a good way to test clay, to see if it's way past time to be using on your car's paint.