Poor #83 results - why?

[taylor192]

The hood on my car had a lot of swirls. Its a 2003 C-class (not nano-paint) that's been repainted due to an accident. I used #83 yesterday and couldn't get the swirls out, not even a noticable difference (sorry no pics). It was hot (30C) and I couldn't do it in the shade so the product would dry in about 10-20 secs of working it with the G100 at 5000 rpms with the polishing foam pad. In that time it would almost dry out and I'd have to stop.

My technique is to do horizontal strokes at a slow constant speed, then overlap with vertical strokes.

How long should I work #83? I've read the advice, until its almost dry, I'm looking for a time duration.

Why didn't I get good results?

[Mosca]

You just can't use the product in direct sun. #83 depends on that liquid to allow it the time it needs, and that time will vary according to size of work area and amount of product.

This is the difference between a consumer product and a professional product. It took me a couple years of learning to understand how the different variables (time, volume, area, temp, pressure, pad density, humidity) affected how #83 works with the PC... and then I tried it with a rotary, and there's a whole new set of variables to watch for! I didn't have anyone to show me, I learned like you are learning here. Typically the user of a professional product will have professional instruction; maybe a veteran in the body shop will show the new guy how to use it.


Tom

[Tanat198]

Re: Poor #83 results - why?

Originally posted by taylor192
The hood on my car had a lot of swirls. Its a 2003 C-class (not nano-paint) that's been repainted due to an accident. I used #83 yesterday and couldn't get the swirls out, not even a noticable difference (sorry no pics). It was hot (30C) and I couldn't do it in the shade so the product would dry in about 10-20 secs of working it with the G100 at 5000 rpms with the polishing foam pad. In that time it would almost dry out and I'd have to stop.

My technique is to do horizontal strokes at a slow constant speed, then overlap with vertical strokes.

How long should I work #83? I've read the advice, until its almost dry, I'm looking for a time duration.

Why didn't I get good results?

Sometimes you just have to do it twice to get a good result. It's not unusual to do it again. You also need to work it under the shade. #83 can dry very fast and get dusty. So you need to clean the pad quite often and don't buff it dry. I use it with pc nowadays and it works wonder for me.
Good luck.

[taylor192]

I just found a thread talking about hard paint and the ineffectiveness of #83.

MB paint (pre-nano-paint) is supposed to be soft, so #83 should work fine. My hood has been repainted, so maybe the new paint is much harder. I tried #83 in the same spot 4 times and got no-where. I'm going to try on a cooler overcast day (or clean out the garage) or late in the evening and see if I can get better results.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Taylor,

Read this thread,

PC+83 not "cutting" it!


The dual action polisher is limited to what it can do. It will never replace a rotary buffer. What you can and cannot do with a dual action polisher will be determined by a number of different factors, two big ones are paint hardness or softness, and also technique.

How hard did you push down on the head of the polisher?

Also, as Tom mentioned, you cannot work in direct sun, especially direct sun where the surface is warm, and expect to get good results as the product will not perform correctly.

Read the above thread in the link I've provided and try again in the shade. Another very important thing to remember that we teach every Saturday in our detailing class is that when you're try to remove swirls, (In other words, when you're trying to remove paint), you must reduce your work area down to a small size.

Lay out a microfiber like our Ultimate wipe on the hood of your car. Only try to work an area about this large, maybe a little larger. Not as large as our new Supreme Shine Microfiber.



After you have removed the defects, then you can increase your work area, this would be when you're applying either a pure polish or a wax, but for the defects removal process, you need to shrink your work area down, the hard the paint, the smaller the work area.

Does that make sense?

[taylor192]

Mike,

I speculated the hot sun was gonna be a problem so I cut down my area to 12"x12" and finally to 6" x 6". I actually had a bit of luck on the smaller area with a lot of pressure.

Why won't this product work in direct sunlight or on hot metal?

I will try again, I just wanted to make sure it was the heat that was the problem, my technique should be good enough?

Lastly, I put a coat of wax on my hood for the meantime. I don't want to wash (with dawn) the car again to get rid of it, will the DACP work without removing the wax first?

Thanks

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by taylor192
Why won't this product work in direct sunlight or on hot metal?

Because the heat will dry up the product before you can adequately work it. No products work well on a warm/hot surface in the sun despite some other companies claims.

I will try again, I just wanted to make sure it was the heat that was the problem, my technique should be good enough?

See my next post...

Lastly, I put a coat of wax on my hood for the meantime. I don't want to wash (with dawn) the car again to get rid of it, will the DACP work without removing the wax first?

Thanks

Yes. The DACP will remove all of the wax.

[Mike Phillips]

Tips & Techniques for using the G-100a to remove swirls and other paint defects.

Products Used
Quik Clay System
G-100a
W-8006 foam polishing pad
W-9006 foam finishing pad
#83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish
#80 Speed Glaze
Meguiar's NXT Generation Tech Wax
Ultimate Wipe
Ultimate Bonnet

First wash the car thoroughly. Pay special attention to loosening and removing any dirt particles from cracks and crevices to prevent these dirt particles from being introduced onto the surface during the polishing process. After washing and drying, inspect the surface both visually for below surface defects and with the palm of your clean hand for above surface defects.

If you feel any tiny little bumps still attached to the finish after washing, proceed to clay the paint to safely remove these contaminants. After claying each panel, wipe the panel down with a quick detailer to remove any residue.

Using Painters Tape, tape-off any plastic trim or components that you don not want to get product onto and also tape-off any edges, high points or areas with known thin paint.



Your car may not look like the below car, but the taped-off areas should...




Applying #83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish with the G-100

• Speed Setting - 4.0 to 5.0
• Arm Speed - Slow Arm Speed
• Pressure - 3-5 pounds of pressure
• Work Area - Work a small area at a time, about 1 to 2 feet square
• Overlapping motions - Overlap each pass by 50%, move the polisher using different patterns
• Time - Work the product until the diminishing abrasives have broken down, but you haven't gone completely to a dry buff.
• Amount of product - Don't overuse product, use enough to lay down a film in the area you are working

When using the G100 Dual Action Polisher to remove defects, (This is different then merely applying a polish or a wax because you're trying to remove paint), you need to use a slow arm speed and overlap you passes by 50%. You also want to go in at least two different directions, for example, from where you're standing, side to side, then front to back. You can also move the polisher in a kitty/corner fashion for complete, thorough and uniform cleaning action.

Only work a small area at a time, this will vary according to the shape, curve or body line of the panel you are polishing but for example on a large flat panel, you want to stay around a 12" to 18" squared area. The point being, don't try to work to large of an area all at once or you won't remove the defects equally everywhere.

When you move on to a new section, overlap into the old section for a uniform end results.

When it comes time for applying a pure polish, or a wax, (besides cleaner/waxes like ColorX if you're doing a one-step), the you can polish larger areas and spend less time, i.e. use less passes.

The point of the cleaning step is to remove the defects. Because the G100's polishing action is gentle and therefore safe, it takes time to remove small particles of paint in an effort to remove a defect.

If the below image represents swirls and scratches evenly distributed throughout your car's finish,



Then you can see that in order to remove the defects you need to remove the highest areas of the surface until they are level with the lowest depths of the deepest scratches. In essence, you must remove paint.


Applying #80 Speed Glaze with the G-100

• Speed Setting - 4.0 to 5.0
• Arm Speed - Medium Arm Speed
• Pressure - 3-5 pounds of pressure
• Work Area - You can work a larger area than what you do with the #83 DACP
• Time - Work the product until the diminishing abrasives have broken down, but you haven't gone completely to a dry buff.
• Amount of product - Don't overuse product, use enough to lay down a film in the area you are working. Speed Glaze is rich in polishing oils a little bit goes a long ways

Applying NXT Tech Wax with the G-100

• Speed Setting - 3.0 to 4.0
• Arm Speed - Medium Arm Speed
• Pressure - Light pressure - More than the weight of the machine, you want to engage the foam pad with the surface, not just float over it
• Work Area - You can work panel by panel, for example, apply to one half of the hood, then walk to the other side of the car and apply to the other half of the hood. Apply to fender all at once, door, deck lid, etc.
• Time - Work the product long enough to make two passes over the finish then move on
• Amount of product - Don't overuse product, use enough to lay down a film in the area you are working

Removing Polish or Wax with an Ultimate Bonnet on the G-100

• Speed Setting - 4.0 to 5.0
• Arm Speed - Medium Arm Speed
• Pressure - 3-5 pounds of pressure
• Work Area - You can work panel by panel, for example, apply to one half of the hood, then walk to the other side of the car and apply to the other half of the hood. Apply to fender all at once, door, deck lid, etc.
• Time - Work the area until the bonnet has removed the wax

[JeffM]

Mike, you like that car as much as i do

[Mosca]

With enough time, you can get the D/A and #83 to fix a lot of stuff... but most people don't have the time, and even if you did it's a really draining process. Over at Better Car Care, I have the Audi pics, results that took about 5 hours to achieve. I was beat for two days afterward, too. It's fair to say that it would have been about half an hour of taping and 90 minutes of polishing with a rotary.

A couple things are going on:

1) #83 breaks down linearly. As such, it needs to stay wet long into the process as the particle size decreases in order to do what it is supposed to do.

2) Because #83 breaks down linearly, there is a very small window in which you can keep using it; if you stop too soon, it hasn't broken down enough. If you stop too late, you're polishing the paint with the pad rather than the product.

3) Because you are working on a hot surface, the heat is prematurely evaporating the amount of liquid in the product (premature evaporation), which then reduces the amount of time you can work it and which then affects the effectiveness of the product.


Tom

[taylor192]

Tom,

Thanks that was the kinda answer I was looking for. I have all the time in the world, I just felt like I was wasting too much product and getting nowhere so I thought I'd stop and ask first.

I'm waiting for it to cool down for a few days and I'll try it again. I might have to do it late in the evening with a flashlight, the weather here has been great lately!