3000 grit... use #83?

[integraoligist]

on the picks of the green paint above... you said that ya used: After ScratchX, Deep Crystal Polish and one application of NXT Tech Wax Paste.

I know that the NXT contains oil's and fillers to better hide light swirls and blemishs... does the Scratch X and Deep Crystal Polish also contain the fillers?

I was planning on doing the entire car in either #80 or #83 which have the fillers... i was also thinking or adding Klasse AIO after that, then a Sealent.
However, the AIO has cleaners in it and will take off the Fillers from the #80 or #83.

Would it be better to skip the AIO and just go right from the #80 or #83 to a Sealent? then after the sealent to a non-cleaner wax?

[Mike Phillips]

All this filler comes from the uniformed off other forums.

Originally posted by integraoligist
on the picks of the green paint above... you said that ya used: After ScratchX, Deep Crystal Polish and one application of NXT Tech Wax Paste.

I know that the NXT contains oil's and fillers to better hide light swirls and blemishs...

All wax fills if it actually leaves something behind.

Does that make sense?

Let me say it another way, if a wax, or polish, as some companies call their paint protectants, leaves behind any type of material on the surface, or in the microscopic surface imperfections, then the product is at the same time filling.

Can everyone agree on that? If you can't, then what your saying is some waxes, or polishes work by leaving nothing behind, which doesn't make sense.

So ALL waxes, or paint protectants, be it Turtle Wax, or Zaino, if, they work at all fill to some degree because they are leaving something behind on the surface.

So enough with the [i]NXT contains fillers, as all waxes fill.

Sheesh... will this nonsense ever cease? It's hard to imagine what passes for factual and even helpful information on other forums, it appears to be a case of the blind leading the blind.

does the Scratch X and Deep Crystal Polish also contain the fillers?

From another reply I made on this same topic,

You say tomato, I say tomato Or in the detailing world,

"Some say filler, (because they don't understand or have an agenda), we say lubricating film"

Your goal should be to remove the below surface defects, (swirls and scratches), not merely fill them in. If you want to fill them in, you may find this difficult to do as clearcoat finishes are scratch-sensitive and tend to show defects very easily.

Even if you fill them in, because whatever you use to fill them in with will wear-off, they will re-appear after a car wash or two.

Meguiar's compounds, paint cleaners and cleaner/polishes are formulated to remove defects, not merely fill them in. Part of the way they do this is by using a lubricating film to cushion the abrading action of our diminishing abrasives, this prevents more swirls and and scratches from being instilled in the process. You'll find people on other forums generically labeling this lubricating film as a filler, but that's because they typically don't understand the complex abrading/polishing action taking place on the surface at the microscopic level.

If you want to merely fill scratches and swirls in, then any quality wax will help to do this as any quality wax or paint protectant, (or polish by some peoples definition), will do this if the product is in fact actually leaving behind any of itself behind. If a product leaves itself behind to protect the finish, (the goal of a wax or paint protectant), by definition, it is filling because it is coating over. This should especially be true of any product that claims to be layerable as if it is truly layering, then the film-build it is leaving behind should be increasing in thickness and thus the surface imperfections should be become less visible.

I was planning on doing the entire car in either #80 or #83 which have the fillers...

Says who? Some person hiding behind a nickname on a forum presenting themselves as a detailing guru?

i was also thinking or adding Klasse AIO after that, then a Sealent.
However, the AIO has cleaners in it and will take off the Fillers from the #80 or #83.

Well I read your posts on Autopia and all of the replies you received and you're talking about using the Klasse Twins. Klasse is like a non-cleaning floor polish in that if you apply some to the car and let it dry, it will dry opaque and resemble dried Elmer's Glue. This is why everyone tells you to apply a thin coat and wipe it off immediately. If you apply even a smidge over a thin coat and let it dry, you will have to scrape it off as it dries like glue. It's also not clear and it wrinkles up again when it gets wet.

If this is the type of product you want to apply to your car's paint to try to make it look it's best, that's your choice. It's more money, more work and in my opinion, I can get as good or better results faster and easier using a Meguiar's wax. (Thus the reason I used Meguiar's before coming to work for the company and my continued use of the product to this day.)

Would it be better to skip the AIO and just go right from the #80 or #83 to a Sealant? then after the sealant to a non-cleaner wax?

Meguiar's tends to be system oriented, in that our chemist formulate our products to work together in a system. Now days, everyone and their brother claim that but nobody has been doing it longer or better than Meguiar's, just look at how many best of class and best of show winners at the pinnacle of car shows, the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance use Meguiar's. (Hint... most of them for as long as records have been kept).

Here's a little something I wrote in a similar thread that will explain a number of different subjects in one fell swoop, read this over and then think about it and compare it to all the opinions you read everywhere else...

~~~~~~~~~~~~


I read a lot of people's opinion on this subject on multiple forums and most of the time it relates back to somebody's advice to wash your car with strong detergent soap to remove anything from the surface so that somebody's polymer will bond to the surface.

From one of our chemists...

A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.

This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.

Here's something else to think about, although in a different industry, there are parallels in the bonding and protecting topic that apply.

Meguiar's created the first mold release wax for the infant mold release industry in 1950. To this date, M08 Maximum Mold Release Wax continues to be one of the most popular mold release waxes in the world.



Recently, Meguiar's introduced a brand new synthetic liquid polymer mold release wax system called Meguiar's Velocity Liquid Synthetic Mold Release System.



Now let me tie this together and show how Meguiar's mold release systems, both paste waxes and liquid synthetic polymer systems are vital to creating finished parts like Yachts, and how important it is that the mold release wax bond, or adhere to the mold.


A new, or green mold is originally prepped by sanding smooth the surface and then compounding the surface to remove the sanding marks.

After that, the mold surface is polished to a high gloss. The smoother and glossier the surface can be made, the smoother and glossier the part being reproduced from the mold will be. This cuts down on post-production finishing work.

Now follow me on this....

The polishes used for machine polishing the molds are both very rich in Meguiar's trade secret polishing oils. These rich polishing oils help to create a brilliant high gloss finish on the mold. The two most used polishes for this process are,

M03 Machine Glaze



M82 Mold Polish



After polishing the mold with either of these two products, Meguiar's recommends applying the mold release wax next, either the traditional paste wax system, or the new liquid synthetic polymer system.

These are to be applied onto the mold surface after polishing, the excess polish is wiped off, but the mold is not washed with dish soap to remove any remaining polishing oils because they are part of the system. As the chemist stated above,

A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.

This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.

Now it is vital that the mold release wax adhere to the surface to create a barrier coating to prevent the lay-up material, (usually polyester resin with a catalyst), from sticking to the mold. If the mold release wax fails to bond to the surface evenly over the entire surface, to create this barrier layer, then the resin will stick to the mold and the part will not release.

This is called, sticking a mold and it's not a good thing! Imagine sticking a 75' Yacht mold! The owner of the boat building business would be out the mold, the raw materials to make the part, (the part is the yacht), and the labor invested in everything, plus the down time due to the fact that the mold is not producing a sale-able product.

Ouch!

If you have ever worked with polyester resin, or even mixing 2-part epoxy glue together, then you know how sticky these materials are.

Do you understand how important it is now for a mold release wax to bond or adhere to the surface of the mold?

Now think about it for a few minutes... Meguiar's has been producing pure polishes since 1901. We've been making the M03 Machine Glaze since sometime in the 1930's, (I think), maybe 1940's or 1950's, but I'm pretty sure since the 1930's. We've been making mold release wax since 1950, that's 55 years of production for M08 Maximum Mold Release wax.

A lot of boats have been successfully built using Meguiar's mold release wax systems with a long track record of not sticking molds. If Meguiar's though it would be better to wash a mold with dish soap, or wipe it down with a 50/50 mixture of water and Isopropyl Alcohol before applying a mold release wax so that it will properly bond, then we would recommend this and we would have started recommending it a long time ago. But removing any Meguiar's polishing oils from the surface of a mold is not the best way to insure our waxes adhere and thus we don't recommend removing them before applying our waxes in fact just the opposite, we recommend polishing the surface first, and then applying the wax.

While boat molds and car finishes are very different items, the same ideas of cleaning, polishing and then applying a wax apply to both surfaces when using Meguiar's products.

Meguiar's chemists insure that all the products in our systems, whether it's the Velocity Mold Release System, or the Deep Crystal System, work with one another. each product building on the results from the previous product and process. This is called a synergistic compatibility. Each step in the system moving the process forward until the end-result is achieved, a beautiful, high gloss finish.

If your goal is to create a beautiful show car finish on our car, then trust in Meguiar's to see you through to success. We've been helping professionals and enthusiasts around the world to showcase their talents for over 100 years!

~~~~~~~~~~~~


Like everyone always says, Your end-results are 95% prep work and 5% LSP", (Or something similar to this). Although they say this, they then try to persuade people it's all about the LSP.

Truth be known, it really is about the prep work because if you don't remove all the defects in the cleaning and polishing steps, your LSP will only make them look shiny! (You don't want shiny swirls and scratches )

After you have done everything you can to remove the defects, using a quality wax will carry your results over the top for a true show car shine.

If you want to use the Klasse Twins, machine polish the paint first with M83, then follow this with M80. After this, forget about all the fluff you read about fillers and simply apply and work in the AIO allow it to dry then remove, then apply your Klasse SG using the WOWO method, (so you don't end up with Elmer's glue all over your paint), and you're ready to display!

Here's another option, after you've removed the M80 Speed Glaze, apply two thin coats of NXT Tech Wax. Use a clean soft finishing pad on the dual action polisher at a speed setting of 3.0 to apply, allow the wax to dry till it swipes clear and the wipe off using your softest, microfiber polishing cloths. If possible wait a little while and apply your second coat following the same procedures outlined above.

Keep the car as clean as possible until you set-up for the show then sit back and enjoy the comments!

[integraoligist]

your persuading me more and more to just use all Meg's products

As usuall, i was reading in the other forums that you can not later the NXT, because of the way it is made... the next coat you apply will simpily take off and replace the 1st coat... any truth to that? or another case of ignorence about people not understand a product?

also, it washed 1, maybe 2 times per week... how long will the NXT coat(s) stay in-tact? does it have a life of about 4-6 weeks like many waxes i've seen? example: p21s/s100


Thanks!