Beading...?

[supergus]

So I'm sure just about everyone here has tried different waxes over time, and some bead better (or longer) than others. My question is: So what? Is it possible that product "x" and product "y" can exhibit different beading characteristics yet still provide the same (+/-) level and duration of protection? The reason for my question is that I was watching Loache's video that shows a side by side with T.W. Ice. Where the Ice beaded, the 365PP sheeted. I know the angle of the hose can affect beading, but it was pretty clear IMO that the Ice beaded a little more than 365. But if Meg's claims are true ( I have NO reason not to believe Mr. Stoops) then beading really doesn't amount to a hill of beans. As a matter of fact, one would think that sheeting would be preferable to beading, since as beads evaporate (provided the vehicle hasn't been driven or dried off) they can leave water spots. Forgive me if this is "old hat" but being new to detailing, I figured I could post my thoughts and we could banter back and forth, and us noobs could be put to ease by not worrying about the "perfect bead"! Again, sorry about the rambling! Oh, and thanks in advance!

[larry0071]

I personally like beading and use it a gage to monitor the deterioration of the protectant applied to the finish.

Here is my reasoning....
If my product when freshly applied displays aggressive beading with 90 degree or greater bead angle starts to flatten out in a month and behind to really show "pancake" like beads in 3 months, I can safely assume that the level of protection is no longer what it once was and is nearly depleted. It's time to cost the vehicle with product again. I try to never let my cars get near that pancake point, I keep sharp and well defined beads on my cars because in extremely obsessive/compulsive about cleaning and showing off my extreme beading.

That said, I tend to use a base layer product, call it my main layer. Then every week or two, I use the meguiars synthetic X- press spray wax (sealant) to keep the level of protection at our near it's very peak level.

I always suggest to people that it's wise to concentrate on the spring and fall for the application of the main or base product.

I want to lay down that strong base just prior to the summer sun and then again just prior to the winter salt. (I'm in western Pennsylvania, the salt and rust belt of the North East).

When I do a customer/friend/family member car, I sell them a gallon of the X-press spray wax so that they can do maintenance washes followed by a simple and quick application of the X-press that will keep the UV and chemical protection maxed out during the season that we are seeing up to span. I've never had a person decline buying the X-press synthetic once I give a 2 minute demonstration of the product being applied. I stock the gallons in my home garage, and I can hand you a gallon when you pick up the vehicle. Note that I am not a professional/full time detailer, I'm am engineer at a power plant fire my day job. I do this because it's my passion!

This method will provide support for aggressive beading throughout the entire season, showing the car owner that their vehicle is being maintained to the highest level of protection possible with minimal input by them, and they keep this level of visually observed protection all season long and rain after rain.

Beading isn't necessary I suppose, but it does provide a very clear visual indicator that anyone can see and understand. And beading is universally accepted as an indicator of a well waxed car by the general public, so it's a tool that works great with no learning curve that I have to get through with the owner of the vehicle.

[ffboy]

Re: Beading...?

I too, prefer water beading. Sure, it may not be the only means of determining the amount of protection in any wax, sealant, or coating.

Mike even said in one thread that NXT 2.0 was designed to sheet water, but it says in the label "relentess beading.. Wash after wash" so it is a bit confusing too.. However, I agree and experienced using an instant detailer as a means to determine amount of protection left in the paint. If the detailer is a lot harder to remove (yes, even UQD).

[Blueline]

Re: Beading...?

I really only care how my vehicles look after waxing. Beading is a side issue. It is nice to see after a light rain, but a nuisance if it dries leaving water spots. I like Ultimate Wax, however if i could find something as good as it, that sheeted, I might move to that product.

[ffboy]

Re: Beading...?

Yup, let's not forget one aspect of waxing (the entire paint enhancement) which is to achieve that deep (or reflective) shine we all long for. It's not as if we do all that to wet the finish just to see "water beading"

[supergus]

Re: Beading...?

Agreed! I guess one of the reasons for this thread is to reassure those that are just getting into detailing is this: just because "x" beads better than "y" doesn't mean that "x" is automatically superior to "y". What is more important IMO is finding a product that you like, and if you wax 2-3 times per year then regardless of the amount of beading, you can be sure that you have adequate protection. At least that's the way I see it...

[Don]

Re: Beading...?

I've used products where the beads flattened out during washing/rinsing, but during a rainstorm they beaded like crazy, then at the next wash, it was flatter beading and sheeting again. I usually judge wax coverage by the amount of friction I feel when I'm applying UQD/UQW. The less friction I feel, the better the wax protection remaining IMO.

[supergus]

Re: Beading...?

I think that's probably the best way to judge the level of protection. I know this may be a trivial point to most, but I know that it was somewhat confusing for me. What with all of the choices in products (polish vs. wax vs. coatings, etc.) and all the different brands out there (I know this is the Meguiar's forum but we've probably all tried multiple brands and multiple combinations of products) it can certainly get overwhelming and confusing.

[Loach]

Re: Beading...?

In the perfect situation, I would like to be able to use water behavior and repellency as a gauge to determine the durability or the level of protection in the products I use. Here in Florida, what I want a wax or sealant to do is provide me the best protection against sun fading and sun damage. And the exact point that this property evaporates or erodes off of the paint, I want to know this so that I can always be sure whether or not my paint is protected or unprotected.

In the real world though, beading is perhaps just a byproduct of a specific ingredient in the waxes, sealants, or coatings. Whether or not that ingredient is tied to UV protection, that's something that I don't know and it probably differs depending on the chemistry of the individual products. You can perhaps have a product that doesn't bead at all that has superior protection against sun damage, and a product that beads immensely that has no protection at all. The one thing beading does is lets me know for sure that something has survived on the paint, still bonded that is producing an observable effect. I love the cool factor of how water behaves with a high surface tension product, but I really like being able to observe whether or not there's truly some life left after some time has gone by. How effective that "life" actually is, is certainly a great question that as a consumer I don't have an answer for.

There's definitely a market for products that have crazy beading, and for products that have a lower surface tension that are more effective at sheeting the water off of the paint. What I'm interested in seeing is consistency and longevity out of either of those behaviors. If it's designed to be a sheeting wax/sealant, I want to see that product sheet the water off of the paint in a reasonable amount of time, but be consistent with that water behavior over an extended time period. So if I perform a test after the 24 hour cure period and observe the behavior, I want to come back in a few weeks to test after a wash and find that the water behavior hasn't changed significantly, the surface tension is consistent and durable. That would let me know that the product is still bonded to the surface. If its designed to be a high surface tension beading product, then again I want to see that consistency and durability throughout the lifetime of the product. The problem with this, is there are a lot of things that can easily alter the surface tension and affect water behavior that have nothing to do with diminishing the actual protective capabilities of the wax/sealant.

With my test of Paint Protect & ICE, I think some consumers are going to read the bottle and have an expectation that Paint Protect is going to behave like ICE does when they put water to it. So all I can really determine is that in my individual environment, this is how Paint Protect is reacting when I put it through the water test in comparison against a product that I was more expecting it to behave like.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Beading...?

Here's a simple test to see if beading is an indicator of protection or not: Wash and dry your car with an all purpose cleaner, dish detergent, or by driving though a high pH detergent "touchless" car wash. Basically anything that will strip the wax off your car. Then clay it and compound it with a body shop safe compound, one that contains no silicones and it fully "paintable", then finish off with a good wipe down of a body shop prep solvent. You now have totally naked paint. Apply some M07 Show Car Glaze according to the directions on the bottle, and then spray some water onto the hood of the car. It will bead like mad but there is zero protection in that product. Now, wash the car with a nice, pH balanced car wash soap (let's use Gold Class) and rinse it off. The water will lay there in a big ol' sheet because you've washed away the M07 and exposed the bare paint once again.

Beading in and of itself is not necessarily an indicator of protection. All you can really say about beading with any degree of accuracy, assuming you know nothing about the product that creates the beading, is that you've altered the surface tension of the object the product was applied to. Now, depending on what materials contained within that product actually are, the same things that alter the surface tension could also be providing protection. In the case of M07, the ingredient that alters the surface tension does NOT provide protection. Heck, it doesn't even provide durability! It is a very fleeting, very temporary beauty treatment for the paint. Period. In the case of Paint Protect, we aren't just using oils to create water beading (M07 proves that is not a durable solution) but rather some highly specialized polymers that are incredibly durable. The video that shows Paint Protect up against TW ICE is not a true indicator of either products performance as the water was applied to the surface roughly 24 hours after the products were applied. Try that experiment again, but don't touch either car for a week, then wash it properly with a pH neutral car wash and see what happens. Here is what we fully expect to see, given our experiences with both products as well as what we've seen in several online reports:

• Paint Protect: you will actually see an increase in beading a week after the product was applied, especially following a full wash. That's because some of the "carrier" ingredients stick around on the surface after you've wiped off the excess, and these ingredients will be washed away with that first wash, fully exposing the nature of the "active" polymers that make Paint Product do what it does - bead water even after repeated washings.
• TW ICE: wash it once or twice and beading changes to flat sheeting, just like when you wash away that M07 described above. Yes, it's quite easy to use and it won't stain trim, but the problem with it seems to be an extreme lack of durability. That's not just us (or even me) saying this. When it was introduced it was almost a revelation for users.

With regard to sheeting, consider this: it's pretty easy to make a product that will have water laying on a flat surface in a sheet, but it's an altogether different story if you also want to evacuate that sheet off the paint. It's gravity that causes water on the side of a car to run down the sides, but gravity can't pull that water sideways off the hood, roof and trunk. You'd actually be better off with a crazy super-hydrophobic coating that creates a high contact angle with the water beads, along the lines of what a lotus leaf does in nature (hence the term "lotus effect" when talking about hydrophobic treatments). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_angle for images showing different examples of contact angle. Such a contact angle yields not just beads of water, but little balls of water. These little balls of water will be more readily evacuated from the surface in part simply because there is less contact area for them to "attach" with. There are a few expensive, so called "semi permanent" coatings on the market that come close to this, but application can be finicky at best, and in some cases only specifically trained installers even have access to them - and they charge a premium to apply them to your car. Or you can spend $10 for a 16 ounce bottle of Paint Protect and live with beads are just that, beads (not balls) and settle for merely one year of durability. And protection!

[Loach]

Re: Beading...?

Here are the results of my durability test for Meguiar's Paint Protect:

(Day 7)

(Day 14)

[Loach]

Re: Beading...?

• Paint Protect: you will actually see an increase in beading a week after the product was applied, especially following a full wash. That's because some of the "carrier" ingredients stick around on the surface after you've wiped off the excess, and these ingredients will be washed away with that first wash, fully exposing the nature of the "active" polymers that make Paint Product do what it does - bead water even after repeated washings.
• TW ICE: wash it once or twice and beading changes to flat sheeting, just like when you wash away that M07 described above. Yes, it's quite easy to use and it won't stain trim, but the problem with it seems to be an extreme lack of durability. That's not just us (or even me) saying this. When it was introduced it was almost a revelation for users.

Hey Mike thanks for responding, I don't think I have enough posts to put up links to my 7 day and 14 day update test videos. But as far as working with Paint Protect, the 7 day test did not seem to improve the repellency for me once the car was rinsed and washed. I was able to get 30 consecutive wash and rinses in on day 7 with Deep Crystal soap to compare each product. This ICE wax is a different one than their much older clear polish, and I really think that people who read the Paint Protect bottle are going to expect it to behave how the ICE does in my test which holds up its surface tension characteristics very well throughout the two week test.

Now, the base layer sealant repellency characteristics aren't much of a concern for me personally, because I will apply a product like Ultimate Quik Wax after I perform my weekly/biweekly washes which will replace any of the repellency traits of the original sealant with its own. However, I just think when consumers read the bottle of Paint Protect, they'll definitely have some expectations about how they expect it to behave with water, and based on my tests I think the claims about beading have positioned this product to be a bit disappointing for those who really like to see crazy beads out of their wax or sealant. I think if I did a blind test with most consumers and at the 2 week test told them to read the Paint Protect bottle and guess which side of the hood it was applied to after rinsing, I believe many of them would actually guess wrong.

This has just been my experience with it, I'm still waiting to hear the test results from others who have tried it to see if their results match mine or not.

[davey g-force]

Re: Beading...?

Loach,

Did you re-apply PP365 for the update videos?

From my understanding of Mike's post, he said you need to re-apply it and start the test again. This is because initially doing the test after 24 hours compromised PP365's curing process...

[Loach]

Re: Beading...?

Yes, for the durability test I stripped everything using M205 and wiped it down with IPA and then reapplied both products. We got a little bit of rain on day 5 of the test, but I went out and checked it during the rain and didn't notice any improvement in the beading. So the first time the car saw water for this test was day 5, and the first time I rinsed it was day 7 during the video.