need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

[Top Gear]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Forgive me for an indulgent post. I's about a year later and I'm looking through the discussion above. I think I was trying to convey too many ideas in one go, and all of them were wrapped up within my experiences with several different waxes and cars in a humid, sometimes heavily rainy part of the country.

At or before the time of the discussion above, I'd gone too long on a DA correction using lots of GC QW. It was during a less rainy time mostly during 2013. After the discussion above, the weather patterns changed again, during 2014. There was really no way to keep up just using GC QD/QW as a WW and booster, and so I was able to see that the DA liquid wax (Gold Class) and Ultimate Polish underneath were long gone, sooner than I previously would have thought. This correlated with my other experiences with other waxes, that is, that none of them seem to stay fresh for long in heavy rains or other exposure (frequent washing and wiping).

Here's an October 2011 comment from Michael from another thread:

While UQW is quick and easy, it's a spray wax and therefore not a real substitute for a proper liquid or paste wax. If you applied Gold Glass 6 months ago there's probably not much left today, even with fairly regular applications of UQW. While UQW may be pretty tenacious for a spray wax, it is just not a substitute for the real deal. And don't fixate on the "once a month" part of our earlier response - we said that depends on how much exposure, and what kind of exposure, the car gets. A lot of heavy rain is pretty hard on any wax or sealant. Here in SoCal, for example, we may get heavy rain for a total of a few hours every year (light rain a few other times during the year, like this morning for example) but other areas get days and days of near torrential rain fairly regularly, and that changes things a lot.

I'm glad I finally saw this thread/comment, as the rain/exposure part is what I was getting at all along. What I wasn't seeing during the discussion above due to the weather at the time was QW wasn't actually substituting for a "proper" wax once the dry weather window was over. Hope that makes sense?

Here's a comment I made a week ago:

...Often, as soon as I've got something figured out, some technique or solution to reduce the workload, the weather patterns change. I once raved on here about going months and months without washing, but then the rains came and that Southern California ideal went right out the window. I once raved about QD and QW as solutions to everything I was encountering, until I noticed residue buildup, wipe holograms, and growing swirls to be hidden with another wipe down. I realized I was fooling myself - I wasn't "maintaining" a swirl-free finish, but rather, I was just wiping a decent correction right off the surface. How maddening!...

So, as Obi Wan Kenobi put it, what I said last year "was true, from a certain point of view."

2015 has been rainier so far. I've done 3 corrections in 4 months, mostly testing my techniques, and the latest is now only a week old. To test wax durability, I've purposely QW'ed only once and very lightly, and I've not washed at all, but the car has been rained on several times rather heavily, amounting to nearly 3 full days of rain in a week's time. I've actually tested a squeegee a couple of times after the rain, touching up with a dry MF, just to prevent spotting. In short, for a week I've barely touched the car, where as normally I'd QW the surface almost daily.

The result? On the top surfaces (hood, roof, trunk), the DA wax is essentially gone, and the Ultimate Polish underneath is either exposed or already starting to wash away. It's hard to tell which or to what extent, of course, but up close these surfaces already look swirled, the finish even looks thinner (than the sides), feels rougher, and it's just not as "velvety" (sorry no pics, but I think you all know what I mean). This matches my experiences with other waxes being washed off very quickly from rain and/or washings...but still...one week.

So, I've decided to 1-step re-wax these top surfaces with the DA instead of using QW. Now that I can see the non-boosted limits of wax more clearly, I have to add this to my growing list of detailing tricks. Hope all this helps someone else

[Top Gear]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Yeah, coatings and sealants are a whole other topic, as Ultimate or NXT Wax are neither. Again, despite all the posters who will come after me for saying this, I've seen no actual proof here or elsewhere that a coating or sealant will give me what Gold Class/Yellow can give me in terms of look and feel, and also actually outlast it for real, and also require no boosting or maintenance.

How can I say that?? Consider that my Coupe is a black daily driver and is not garage kept. Here in the Southeast, the heat and humidity are brutal. The sunshine can be as clear and strong as any desert. Gulf of Mexico-supplied moisture can come in with days of pounding rains that can wash your wax almost completely off in one storm. Where I live there's a lot of dust and sand in the wind, as well. This is not Southern California with 70 degree rain-free convertible weather year-round! Paint protections do not last here when weathered. Yet, there are parts of my Coupe that have not been DA waxed in 15 months, but they are smooth, waxed and protected anyway - the secret is Quik Wax and Quick Detailer with regular boosting and occasional claying. Remember, the primary purpose of wax is to protect the finish and/or prep work underneath, and for a couple or three weeks for sure, that's easy to get from any product on the shelf.

If you enjoy waxing by hand or DA, you can do so once a month and it won't matter how long anything supposedly lasts. Boosting with quik products, on the other hand, reduces that workload dramatically, but still lets us enjoy a regular hobby of easy maintenance. You might find a different balance in your situation, your region of the country, etc. So, if I can get 15 months on a DA application of Gold Class wax and regular boosting, with a black car in the detail-challenging weather of the Southeast, why do I need to pay any attention to the mythical hype about other waxes, sealants or coatings??


Anyway, I think we're all closer in perspective that it seems.

[ffboy]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Well I want the wet look and if it Gold Class/Yellow that will give me that .That is what i'm going to use.An if it take me to wax it every month then that is what I will do.I think it all come down to what a person want and how much time do a person have to care for they car.If I wrong please let me know.I'm new to this and I may be over looking something.

Nothing wrong with using a product you feel brings out the beauty of your paint and using something that you feel will give you the most satisfaction. Whether it's M26, Gold Class, NXT 2, Ultimate or some other brand, then so be it. Waxing isn't exactly a bad hobby.. Then you can try other waxes, to see which you really like.

[The Guz]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Up to this point nobody is disputing that M26 of GC is a bad product. I use M26 very often and it will always be a personal favorite. Do I get longer lasting protection from a sealant than a carnauba? I sure do. Carnaubas gives a different look than a sealant and if one is happy with the results of using it then keep on using it. Do selanats last longer. In general yes. Is it for everyone of course not. Everyone has a personal favorite. If one wants to experiment with the durability between the two then apply it to different areas of the car (without boosting to give a better indication than with boosting). I also forgot that there are hybrid waxes that last longer than a traditional carnauba and even longer than a sealant. Coatings are the new kid on the block and last even longer than both a sealant and carnauba.

I agree that boosting extends the life of the wax/sealant. But at what point are you only seeing the effects of boosting? Also the average consumer doesn't know what boosting is. Members on this forum do.

[KIA HYBRID]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Well I want the wet look and if it Gold Class/Yellow that will give me that .That is what i'm going to use.An if it take me to wax it every month then that is what I will do.I think it all come down to what a person want and how much time do a person have to care for they car.If I wrong please let me know.I'm new to this and I may be over looking something.

[Top Gear]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Top Gear, please stop assuming that there is a myth to synthetic sealants lasting longer than traditional carnauba waxes. You seem to have an agenda here that we can't quite figure out. From a previous thread:

This still seems to show a lack of understanding of the fact that the "synthetic" ingredients that are contained in Gold Class/M26 have absolutely zero to do with those found in Ultimate or NXT. Yes, we agree that some synwaxes will wash off pretty quickly, but again, not all synthetics contain the same ingredients. We have always said that synthetics, as a group, will out last carnauba waxes, as a group. On the face of it, that implies that there may in fact be some overlap. We have no doubt at all that if you were to look at all sealants and waxes on the market today, and compare the most durable "carnuaba wax" to the least durable "synthetic sealant", you would probably see better durability out of that particular carnauba product compared to that particular synthetic product. No big shock there, really. But without a doubt, and there is no "myth" about it, the synthetic polymers found in Ultimate Wax will provide longer lasting protection than the whole mix of ingredients found in Gold Class. You are right when you say that carnauba waxes are not terribly durable and do require regular reapplication or boosting. Certainly the actual carnauba component is more susceptible to temperature extremes and heavy rain fall, but the fact of the matter is that the synthetic ingredients that offer protection in Ultimate are able to withstand these extremes much better. That said, prolonged heavy rain is extremely hard on any wax or sealant. What's really important to consider, however, is that the synthetic ingredients found in most carnauba waxes are not there to necessarily provide durability or protection, but rather to aid with the very subjective visual appearance and/or the ease of application and removal. Some of those same ingredients may well be found in Ultimate, and for the same reasons. But they have nothing to do with the durability of either product. NXT and Ultimate are both 100% synthetic polymers, but the list of ingredients is quite different.

We are almost shooting ourselves in the foot by admitting that Ultimate will outlast and out protect Gold Class, but it's true. But not everyone puts durability at the top of their list when selecting a wax/sealant. Some people don't even like the look of synthetics and much prefer carnauba for that reason alone. That's fine. Buy what you like - and there are plenty here on MOL who recommend and use brands other than Meguiar's, and we have no problem with that, either. But please stop saying that some sort of myth is being perpetuated regarding our carnauba waxes versus our synthetics. It's simply not true.

Thanks Michael, but the only agenda I have is the truth. Even you have not said what "lasts longer" means, and in my experience, the difference is literally negligible, accountable to faulty comparisons. Some of the posters here, who talk a lot more than I do, but don't actually have any more experience than I do, seem to think that a small variance in durability equals a huge stretch of time. They also assume that always and in every situation or comparison that Ultimate or NXT will last double or triple or quadruple as long as Gold Class/Yellow, which is blatantly false. They may cheer at your comments toward me as if they have "won", but do not realize you and I are not actually disagreeing.

Too many detailers and weekend duffers wrongly assume the durability difference between Ultimate or NXT and Gold Class/Yellow is much, much bigger than it really is, which is probably closer to a 5% or 10% difference, given the same exact testing conditions - and I've seen no actual proof of that. I've yet to see anyone actually compare waxes in the same exact testing conditions for true protection durability, such that they can definitively show there is more than a 5% or 10% difference between how long Ultimate/NXT lasts compared to Gold Class/Yellow. I've looked.

Also, despite the careful attention in your comments across the forum, I think you and others are misunderstanding what I've said. For example, I've never claimed that 100% synthetic waxes are all the same, or that Ultimate and Gold Class are exactly the same blends except for the carnauba. If that is what you are reading in my comments, please read them again. I've specifically said, and in the comments you quoted, that I'm assuming the various and sundry synthetic blends of Meguiar's waxes are not the same from one to another, that there is a wide range of blends and ingredients, all awesome products, and those blends change as you change or improve your products. Not sure how I could be more clear. However, none of these variations equal a durability difference big enough to support the myth about Gold Class/Yellow.

The guys here seem to assume that because a product contains even one molecule of carnauba, it automatically only lasts a half or third or quarter as long as a given 100% synthetic without carnauba, thus for that reason alone they seem to choose Ultimate or NXT as a "given". Just because Ultimate may in some conditions last slightly longer than Gold Class, and because even that potential difference depends on weathering and "touches", a difference which could not be more than hours or days, it simply does not follow that a detailer will be re-waxing more often in any objectively significant way - it is not an argument against Gold Class/Yellow. That's the myth.

In other words, the real differences between 100% carnauba wax and 100% synthetic wax, while dramatic, do not apply to Gold Class/Yellow with anywhere near the same dramatic difference. If Gold Class/Yellow lasts me say 3 weeks given no boosting, I'd need to see some scientific proof that Ultimate would last much more than a couple of extra days given the same exact conditions. Until then, I can safely ignore the poor advice flung around by some posters here who keep pushing Ultimate or NXT as the answer to every problem.

On top of these valid reasons, no serious detailer who should be offering advice should be waiting for a wax to simply wear off without boosting (eg. Quik Detailer and Quik Wax). After a fresh DA wax, I'm using GC QD/QW within days or a week at the outset, and so I'm not waiting for the wax to wear off from rain and washings. Even if these anti-Gold Class posters got a few extra days from Ultimate compared to some other year under different conditions when they got a few less days with Gold Class, they are proving nothing but inexperience by continually pushing this myth as "proof" of anything.

Anyway, I love the conversation, and as you say, I hope others are helped by this exchange. However, until someone can show some objective proof that there is more than a margin of error difference between how long any two waxes last, and until they can show even that would matter given regular boosting, I will ignore the a few posters who presume otherwise.

[davey g-force]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

there wouldn't be much difference to an average eye.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

[exploreco]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

thanks to you both..if it wasn't for great people with 2 different views.I would be lost when it come to wax. you 2 have help me a lot to understand wax in a short amount of time.

I agree, I have been following your thread to as we are in the similar boat both having new black cars. I am going to be doing my black the weekend after next. I was pretty set on the Ultimate and think I am still there for the protection aspect as I don't want to have to do a full wax more than twice a year if possible, but the Gold Class does sound enticing if it would really "pop" that black paint even more. If I thought I could get by with only doing my two waxes a year with quick waxes the rest of the time I might try it but who knows. Guess I could get both and see what I think. Maybe there wouldn't be much difference to an average eye. Thanks for all of the knowledge.

[The Guz]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Mr. Stoops

[KIA HYBRID]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

thanks to you both..if it wasn't for great people with 2 different views.I would be lost when it come to wax. you 2 have help me a lot to understand wax in a short amount of time.

[davey g-force]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

^^ Hear here!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Top Gear, please stop assuming that there is a myth to synthetic sealants lasting longer than traditional carnauba waxes. You seem to have an agenda here that we can't quite figure out. From a previous thread:

Well, M26 is not a Quik Wax (as the OP was asking about), but is the blended (ie. Hi-Tech) Yellow Wax (ie. with carnauba) on which Gold Class Liquid/Paste/Quik Wax is based. GC 2.0 is more advanced than M26, I've read somewhere here, due to its newer ingredient blends. IMO, the only reason to choose M26 over GC is if you're buying volume and doing a LOT of cars professionally. Otherwise, all waxes and quik waxes I'm aware of from Meg's are either synwaxes or synwax/carnauba blends. Ergo, GC Liquid, Paste, and Quik Waxes are all hybrids. GC products last every bit as long as UW/NXT, despite the bogus myths.

And our response to that:

You're assuming, then, that all synthetic ingredients are the same, right? There is no doubt that the long chain polymers used in "purely synthetic" waxes like NXT and Ultimate are very different from any synthetic ingredient used in Gold Class or M26. Different like night and day. It's almost like saying "all tires are the same because they use some percentage of natural rubber and a bunch of synthetic materials in their tread compound". On the face of it, that's true (some natural rubber and a whole recipe of "other") but in reality there are enormous differences in tire performance and it's not just because of the percentage mix of ingredients - it's the actual ingredients used and how they behave.

Synthetic polymers encompass an enormous range of possibilities, and that's the beauty of them. They are totally man made and as such we have complete control over their characteristics because they are designed in. While it is indeed true that all carnauba waxes are hybrids of some sort, just what those other ingredients are can play a huge role in user experience, durability, gloss, etc. There is no "bogus myth" about synthetics lasting longer than carnaubas - it's fact, based on the very unique ingredients used in full synthetic products. Is it possible to take a product like Ultimate Wax and add some carnauba to it and call it a hybrid? Sure. But that's definitely not what's happening with our carnauba waxes.

Your response to the above was:

No, not at all. I'm assuming that Meguiar's has created a wide array of different and frequently changing blends using the wonders of advanced chemistry. I did not say all Meg's waxes are the same, but that they are all either synthetic wax blends or synthetic wax blends with carnauba. In short, I do not see a 100% carnauba-only product on your website. This is not a criticism. My amazement at Gold Class in particular is that it is such an advanced blend, a "best of both worlds" approach, but I certainly have never thought it was simply Ultimate or anything else with carnauba added.

I also said that Gold Class will last, for me anyway, as long as anything else you sell. I did not say that carnauba oil alone lasts as long as a synthetic wax, because it does not. I've also used various synwaxes that washed off in a couple of weeks. The bogus myths, to me, are about Gold Class/M26, not carnauba. People right here on these forums assume that Gold Class/M26 are not going to last more than a few days because they are "carnauba waxes", as they put it, so they choose Ultimate, NXT, or others, because they assume those will last longer. Yet, I've never seen a real world comparison that proves the synthetic aspects of Gold Class/M26 do not last, near enough as to make no difference, as long as any straight synthetic. However, my argument has been very clear that regardless of how long these waxes last, we will be boosting them one way or another long before, if we do very simple things like using a wash-n-wax soap or a quik product.

This still seems to show a lack of understanding of the fact that the "synthetic" ingredients that are contained in Gold Class/M26 have absolutely zero to do with those found in Ultimate or NXT. Yes, we agree that some synwaxes will wash off pretty quickly, but again, not all synthetics contain the same ingredients. We have always said that synthetics, as a group, will out last carnauba waxes, as a group. On the face of it, that implies that there may in fact be some overlap. We have no doubt at all that if you were to look at all sealants and waxes on the market today, and compare the most durable "carnuaba wax" to the least durable "synthetic sealant", you would probably see better durability out of that particular carnauba product compared to that particular synthetic product. No big shock there, really. But without a doubt, and there is no "myth" about it, the synthetic polymers found in Ultimate Wax will provide longer lasting protection than the whole mix of ingredients found in Gold Class. You are right when you say that carnauba waxes are not terribly durable and do require regular reapplication or boosting. Certainly the actual carnauba component is more susceptible to temperature extremes and heavy rain fall, but the fact of the matter is that the synthetic ingredients that offer protection in Ultimate are able to withstand these extremes much better. That said, prolonged heavy rain is extremely hard on any wax or sealant. What's really important to consider, however, is that the synthetic ingredients found in most carnauba waxes are not there to necessarily provide durability or protection, but rather to aid with the very subjective visual appearance and/or the ease of application and removal. Some of those same ingredients may well be found in Ultimate, and for the same reasons. But they have nothing to do with the durability of either product. NXT and Ultimate are both 100% synthetic polymers, but the list of ingredients is quite different.

We are almost shooting ourselves in the foot by admitting that Ultimate will outlast and out protect Gold Class, but it's true. But not everyone puts durability at the top of their list when selecting a wax/sealant. Some people don't even like the look of synthetics and much prefer carnauba for that reason alone. That's fine. Buy what you like - and there are plenty here on MOL who recommend and use brands other than Meguiar's, and we have no problem with that, either. But please stop saying that some sort of myth is being perpetuated regarding our carnauba waxes versus our synthetics. It's simply not true.

[Top Gear]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Regarding the myth, Guz & davey... Marketing language on a bottle and third-hand opinions are your proof?? 'Kay. This is called a self-reinforcing delusion. Believe what you will, but again, apocryphal fictions are not good enough for me. Oh, and BTW, wax-topping is also a myth. The second wax usually nullifies the first, and the person doing the topping is usually unable to tell the difference between the two waxes, anyway - so it's a placebo.

Now, to KH, whichever line you choose for your main wax, which is your choice, I do suggest you match your quik products to that wax, so that you are boosting regularly with the same again. Since you'll be using a quik detailer or quik wax every few days, depending on weather, washing, etc, you'll want to extend the same "look-n-feel" you first chose, rather than fight against it and essentially remove it days later.

[C8N]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

From my understanding, synthetic does have a higher resistance to heat.
As to how the hybrids work, I am not sure as they are a mix of carnauba and synthetic.
For example, collinite 845 is a carnauba based wax (never did figure out if this is a carnauba or a mix) and the word on the streets is that it rivals if not betters some synthetics in terms of durability.

[The Guz]

Re: need to know if what i'm about to do is too much or not enough?

Glad you were able to determine something that is to your liking. Post pics when you get it done so we can see how good the car comes out.