trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enamel

[eddie jr]

Hey guys, i am just trying to finalize what products to use to finally tackle the oxidized single stage acrylic enamel on my summe car.. A little backround, it is red, about 9 years old and quote dull and noticeable fading. My plan is to use the PC DA.

I now the "least agressive method first" is ofter recommended but with the amount of dullness and fading i figured it will likely take a bit of effort. I know the UC/UP are newer and possibly a better finish due to their technology but i am just wondering if the UC is going to be too aggressive....i hear it takes off a lot of paint which makes me nervous with the single stage. On the other hand, startinig with the UP i am thinking might be too light to take of the fading etc??

Would the 83 or 80 be a better bet with this paint and then follow with M7? Would it be best to try the M80 first and see what happens? The only thing i am curious about the "least aggressive first" is say if you use M80 and then 83 (becuase it didn't take off enough) then you are actually worse off then if you just used M83 in the first place, correct?

Any advice would be helpful.

thanks.

[Murr1525]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

Any pictures may help.

Generally, you would want to go with polishing pads with the DA, not the cutting pads at all, and that helps keep things milder also.

As for the 'least aggressive first' question, in theory you would stop cleaning/polishing when the paint looks better, so you wouldnt really remove much more paint either way.

For products, you may find that UC for the strong cleaner, #80 for the mild one is a good option. Also, if the paint is really dried out, you may find that a quick coat of #7 first, then UC works best. But that is what test spots are good for, before doing the whole car.

[eddie jr]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

Thanks for the reply.

I have Lake country css pads. So i would always want to use the white pad then with these products then (except of course #7- probably the gray/black?)? I was reading LC's pad guide and they suggest for removing swirls and oxidation to use the orange pad. Would that be more for clear coats or it's just always better to stay with the white with a DA?

[Murr1525]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

The LC Orange one isnt bad.. It kind of falls inbetween the Meguiars Cutting and Polishing pads, so might be too much in one situation, not enough in another. With the way your describe your paint, it is probably worth a small test spot with it.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

Pictures will really help here, no doubt about it.

It can be very difficult to try and line up a series of products for a project and say with any real degree of certainty that these are the best products for the job. Paint systems vary wildly, as do level of defects and skill of operator. Ultimate Compound is definitely going to be more aggressive than either M80 or M83, but at this point it's darn near impossible to say if that's a good thing or a bad thing. We simply don't know how the paint is going to react.

Even your description of dull and faded is pretty open ended as we tend to have different ideas about what's a little faded and what's indicative of really poor shape. We're also talking about 9 year old acrylic enamel and not a 40 year old lacquer paint, so that's a wrench in the works as well. What kind of car are we talking about here, and is it safe to assume that this is a respray?

[eddie jr]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

Pictures will really help here, no doubt about it.

It can be very difficult to try and line up a series of products for a project and say with any real degree of certainty that these are the best products for the job. Paint systems vary wildly, as do level of defects and skill of operator. Ultimate Compound is definitely going to be more aggressive than either M80 or M83, but at this point it's darn near impossible to say if that's a good thing or a bad thing. We simply don't know how the paint is going to react.

Even your description of dull and faded is pretty open ended as we tend to have different ideas about what's a little faded and what's indicative of really poor shape. We're also talking about 9 year old acrylic enamel and not a 40 year old lacquer paint, so that's a wrench in the works as well. What kind of car are we talking about here, and is it safe to assume that this is a respray?

I know exactly what you are saying, it's the same idea as wehn people modify their cars...what is fast to one is slow to another and what is a stiff jarring ride to one is not bad at all to another.

Well, the car is an 85 Firebird so yes, it is a respray. My "opinion" is that it has faded quite a bit now. I took some pictures under garage fluorescent light (maybe not quite as good as the sun) and they at least show some of what i am talking about.. You can see the fading when you compare the colour behind the bird to beside the bird and in the door jamb to the side of the car and then the body lines on the hood (which came from hand polishing the hood a few years ago, with fiine cut cleaner if memory serves). I tried to get some reflections of the lights so you can see the dullness and haziness.

You will see some odd darker marks in some of the pics......that is actually where i rubbed my fingers if you can believe it. I have a theory for that....somebody strike me with a stick, bat or something for neglecting it because this has been somewhat of a labour of love restoring it over the years, but as they say life gets in the way (last waxing about 3 years ago) as did renovating the garage (had to sit outside for 6 months uncovered) so it has taken a beating recently. The theory - with no garage to detail last year I figured car wash wax was better than none.....i believe it actually made it worse as the fading and dullness to me seemed to accelerate as of last year, and the darker spots when i rub my fingers.

It is definitely quite orange now instead of red, even though it always had a hint of orange in the sun.

[eddie jr]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

So any recommendations now that you have an idea of the paint?

thanks.

[Murr1525]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

I'd probably try a test spot with #80 and a spot with UC, using the polishing pad first.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

Given what this paint system is, and how it looks right now, we'd lean toward Ultimate Compound for our initial test spot. Odds are that's all you'll really need to bring the gloss back, followed by Ultimate Polish if you want to do the extra step prior to waxing.

[eddie jr]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

Given what this paint system is, and how it looks right now, we'd lean toward Ultimate Compound for our initial test spot. Odds are that's all you'll really need to bring the gloss back, followed by Ultimate Polish if you want to do the extra step prior to waxing.

So you think it is definitely "recoverable" then as long as their is enough paint on there (which like i said, i never used machines before)?

One other big question i forgot was, what about around the decals? I was just watching Mike Phillips PC video again a couple nights ago to brush up on things and he taped off trim on that vette. It would be a pain in the butt given the shape, but is it needed to prevent damage to them?

And one other question is, will the UC remove 1500 or 2000 grit sand scratches? i am just debating how to repair chips before polishing and if i went the method of wet sanding them to make them smooth, i would then have to remove those marks.

thanks.

[Murr1525]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

That looks quite good... no reason it should not turn out very well.

Taping of trim is a bit up to you... kind of depends how messy you think your will be, and if anything needs protected. As far as decals, definatley avoiding them.

You might look at the Dr. Color Chip instead of wet sanding.

[eddie jr]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

OK, well, now i definitely need some help! I heard this process was supposed to be enjoyable and gratifying but so far there is a lot of frustration. I started on the roof and it is certainly (slowly) getting much better but it is taking a long time. A while back i did a test spot on the side (by the door jamb) with #80 and it seemed to come back quite nice after only one application. It seemed a second would probably do it for colour but there were still some scratches noted in my other thread. So i figured it would probably be best to try #83 when starting on the roof. I was still nervous about using the more aggressive UC given a test spot wetsanding and hand polishing a chip with #80 and terrycloth. I actually went through the primer in a small spot (used 2000 only) but then the #80 and terrycloth surprisingly took out the scratches easily (made me think the paint is quite soft). So this is where things started getting really frustrating. My first problem was i was trying to do too large a spot (maybe 2ft square). After shrinking down the area it still took generally 2 applications of the #83 (with white LC pad) and a couple areas still have a hint of orange.....although quite likely in part due to my technique, needing more overlapping.

My biggest problem is that the product dries out VERY VERY quickly and then is absolutely brutal to get off, literally having to scrub....i had to resort to putting quick detailer on to help get the product off. The thing is though i would probably even be exagerating saying that i could work it for 3min.....i would say more like 2 if i was lucky. It dried out soooo quick, so i then had to do 1ft square spots at the largest....meaning it will probably be 12-16 sections for just the roof!

I then tried #80 back in my first area on the roof and it was maybe a little better but still dried out VERY quick and i experienced the same problem. Am i doing something wrong? Working it so short and then still having to scrub it off is not fun at all! My microfibres certainly aren't lasting very long.

The other thing is that the last section i worked on with #83 there seems to be very obvious sections of orange still there......is that because the pad is becoming loaded and less effective? How many apps should you be doing before switching pads?

Now i am wondering if i should try the UC to avoid having to do 2 or 3 apps of 1 or more products, but i am just trying to avoid spending a fortune on all kinds of products etc. THis is definitely a learning experience, that's for sure!

Should i switch up products or maybe use the same and try a different pad?

Any help/direction would really be appreciated. At this rate i should be done by Christmas! lol.

[thepanchmx]

I know somebody will say this is wrong but what i do to work with old paint like yours where the product dries fast, wash the car with a wax/soapix, then mix some 83/80 with the compund(only first step) and with that you will have longer work time.

[Murr1525]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

I'm not sure if #83 or UC would have more oils, or might be about the same. #80 has the most of those 3, so thats why it didnt dry out as fast.

On real old cars, people have used a pure polish like #7 and put a good application or two or three of that on the panels before starting to work on them with the cleaning products like #80, 83, etc.

[eddie jr]

Re: trying to finalize product choice - M80/M83 vs UC/UP on single stage acrylic enam

On real old cars, people have used a pure polish like #7 and put a good application or two or three of that on the panels before starting to work on them with the cleaning products like #80, 83, etc.

That's interesting, would that increase the working time at all of the #83/80?

Does UC have a longer working time?