How can you tell if black is as black can be?

[XRDAD]

I posted about my Ridgeline a few days ago and got some good suggestions. But this morning, after giving the truck another bath, I still don't know if the black is right?

I tried to photograph it, but it just doesn't show in pictures.
Using the Brinkmann light on it last night, it just doesn't look like the black goes right through. It's smokey or gray or dull.
But from 10' back, it's beautiful (save a swirl or 2 I missed/introduced at the bottom of the doors).

There are hardly any scratches. It's factory Formal Black with zero metallic.
I'm not sure if it is just the light playing tricks on me, am I looking for problems, is it normal or a paint defect??!!!!

I don't have another black car to compare to at home. Can I just pick a black vehicle at random to compare?
To me, the black should be deep and clear. This truck seems to be showing me the gray primer the paint was laid on!? Is that possible?

Any advice is appreciated folks.
Please!

BTW, the blues and the grays and all the other colours I've been working on seem to be OK. My skills are improving slowly and choice of tools/products is becoming clearer.
I'm OK with stripping the work off this truck and starting all over if that's the right thing to do. It's mine and I want it to look right. It does look absolutely perfect all beaded up from the rain

[FIREdawg]

Welcome to the ownership / slavery that is a black vehicle! I have found that if it doesn't look right and it's a daily driver it's better than most. Depending on your skill level and products available it may be as good as you can get it. However, I fully understand wanting the perfect look.

So if you wish to dive deeper ... Here's my two cents.

I did read you used the MF pad system. On some paints it could be a little too abrasive leaving this haze. I have found using D300, following up with one or two rounds with Ultimate Polish will knock the haze out.

Change up the pads. If you have a finishing pad try it with UC, followed by UP and a polish pad for less cut and more refinement. That's what I've been doing when I need to clear up my paint a bit.

All in all it has taken me nearly a year to find what works on my car. Is it perfect? For a daily driver; it's pretty dang close.

Play jazz, improvise think outside the box and above all don't get discouraged!

[wifpd4]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

If you've got your nose nearly touching the paint and you have your Brinkmann in hand and the clear coat looks a bit cloudy or grey, then your last step left a little micro-marring or haze. This is what works for me, I take Ultimate Polish on a polishing pad and get a little agressive. Slow arm speed, speed 4 - 5 on a Porter-Cable and several forceful passes. Follow that with Ultimate Polish and the same pad, less pressure, less speed and about the same arm speed. Finally switch to a finishing pad, speed 3, moderate arm speed and really light pressure. Now this works with moderate to delicate clear coat. If your clear coat is a little more "hardy", you may need to switch from Ultimate Polish to something just a little more aggressive, such as SwirlX and follow that with Ultimate Polish.

In my opinion, I think you grasp that you can't really improve the black, you need to improve the reflectivity and clarity of the clear coat to let the black shine through. Looking at your truck as a whole and from a distance, it will look great. It's only when you isolate your vision to a small area of the whole can you see what is limiting your achieving perfection. Well that and how well the robots at the factory got the black looking before they clear coated it. Try a test spot and then you can decide if the primer is showing.

[XRDAD]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

Thank you both for the quick and detailed replies!


If I understand correctly, I should:
A) test spot (I can hear Mike from here!) with UP on a yellow foam pad at speed 4


If that doesn't do the trick, try UC on a black foam pad at speed 4.
If that doesn't make a change, move to Swirl X on yellow at speed 4.


B) then switch out the pad for a black foam and another run of UP at speed 3.


Sound about right?
I think the DA is going to get a work out next week!
Thanks again guys. I keep wanting to call the issue 'gray' but haze might be the right word.
I'm adding some pics I took, but they really don't tell the story. They seem really washed out.
Well, maybe they do tell the story....

[XRDAD]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

BTW, I ran the light inside the doors too (jamb, B pillar) and the paint doesn't seem all that black in there either, but more black than the exterior. Just saying..

[Meticulous-Detail]

If you've got your nose nearly touching the paint and you have your Brinkmann in hand and the clear coat looks a bit cloudy or grey, then your last step left a little micro-marring or haze. This is what works for me, I take Ultimate Polish on a polishing pad and get a little agressive. Slow arm speed, speed 4 - 5 on a Porter-Cable and several forceful passes. Follow that with Ultimate Polish and the same pad, less pressure, less speed and about the same arm speed. Finally switch to a finishing pad, speed 3, moderate arm speed and really light pressure. Now this works with moderate to delicate clear coat. If your clear coat is a little more "hardy", you may need to switch from Ultimate Polish to something just a little more aggressive, such as SwirlX and follow that with Ultimate Polish.

In my opinion, I think you grasp that you can't really improve the black, you need to improve the reflectivity and clarity of the clear coat to let the black shine through. Looking at your truck as a whole and from a distance, it will look great. It's only when you isolate your vision to a small area of the whole can you see what is limiting your achieving perfection. Well that and how well the robots at the factory got the black looking before they clear coated it. Try a test spot and then you can decide if the primer is showing.

I agree. Using a finishing or fine polish at slow speeds with a finishing pad is called jeweling the paint. This will bring out the gloss, depth and shine.

[XRDAD]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

What about Color X?
Does it have a place in all of this?

[Meticulous-Detail]

What about Color X?
Does it have a place in all of this?

To the best of my knowledge Color X is slightly less abrasive then 205. So I would use 205 then Color X then sealant.

[Selectchoice]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

Keep in mind that all 'blacks' will vary in colour to some degree. The best comparison you can make is with another same year, same colour code vehicle. Saying that though, it's not always a true representation as the comparison vehicle could have been resprayed after an accident, or just had a harder or easier life than your own car. While the clear coat protects the colour coat below it doesn't completely stop the colour coat changing over time.

Your job here is to make the clear coat as 'clear' as possible. There isn't anything much you can do about the colour under that clear because you can't get to it without removing the top clear coat.

For my daily driver black car I've found a simple application of M205 applied with a DA at speed 3 or even lower, with SLLLLLLOOOOOOOWWWWWWW arm movement and almost zero pressure really refines the clear to it's fullest potential.

FYI, I had similar thoughts to you with the first ever car I had except it was white. I would polish and polish, and wax and wax. No matter what I did I wasn't 100% happy. Everyone thought I was nuts and told me how great it looked. Then one day I parked in the carpark next to a car of same age and colour. Wow! Now I got what others were telling me. My car was deeper in shine, 'whiter' in colour and all round better by a fair margin. It took that same car, same colour comparison to make me realise the differences in one simple colour.

[davey g-force]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

Agree with above. Going by the photo, it looks like that might just be the colour of the vehicle. You're best off comparing it to another one of the same colour/make/model/year.

[wifpd4]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

Once you get the black the way you want it and waxed, keep it in tip-top shape using proper washing techniques and shots of a booster wax, Ultimate Quik Wax, as you dry. After that base coat of wax is gone or nearly gone, you can use ColorX. ColorX is a non-abrasive cleaner wax. Use it to make the black shine up and then put a coat of wax (or two) and start your wash-spray wax-ColorX-wax cycle again. Read Murr1525's posts and his use of ColorX.

[XRDAD]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

wifpd4,

you pretty much nailed the concern in a previous post. With my nose and light against the car, the black is not black. Stand back a few feet and it looks great.
So, when looking closely at the paint, "I" think that I can see what looks like haze (or smog, or clouds or fog) in or on the paint. It looks washed out or almost brown and the "haze" is not uniform or solid. There are spots and tones in it (not much, but it's there).

So I'll take all of the advice provided: it's good and I need to compare it to a similar car + I will try a test spot with a polish pad and UP. If no change, a polish pad and UC. I will follow it up with a finish pad and either color X or UP at speed 3. (I'll go read Murr1525's post first).
The final touch will by a finish pad and ULW or NXT at a slow speed.

I may not be able to complete the truck this weekend, but I'll do the test spot.

I very much appreciate the advice gentlemen!
Thank you!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

This is a great discussion with some really solid observations and recommendations!

As SelectChoice pointed out, not all black paint is created equal and just as there are shades of red, blue, green, etc there are also shades of black. This can really change the final outcome of a finish, especially when compared to a different black vehicle. It has been mentioned that you previously used the DA Microfiber Correction System on this Honda, and that is indeed a very aggressive process. On even fairly delicate paint it can create some DA haze, and on really delicate paint it will turn a black car gray very quickly. While that sounds like a negative thing, you have to keep it all in context: if you've got a car with really severe defects and you need the power of the DAMF System to pull out those defects, then go ahead and use it but understand that it may trade those really severe defects for some level of DA haze which you then need to correct. In many cases, when that DA haze is very light, D301 DAMF Finishing Wax will take care of it all in one quick step. But if the haze is more severe, or if the paint is delicate but still fairly hard, then you may need an intermediate step to fully remove that haze. In that case, David's description of how he uses Ultimate Polish (or M205 as a substitute) is fantastic. That should clear up even really heavy DA haze following the D300/DMC5 correction step.

Since Honda paint tends to be fairly delicate, we wouldn't be at all surprised that what you're seeing is indeed some DA haze from your D300/DMC5 correction step, and that D301/DMF5 (or any other wax/sealant you may have used) didn't clean it all up. When you look really, really closely at the paint, do you see so called "tick marks" in the paint? These are very fine, quite uniformly spaced, slightly curved little marks in the paint. Not the curli-cue lines of a pigtail, just very short little curved marks. If so, that's classic for DA haze, which can happen even with traditional liquids and foam pads if they're overly aggressive for a given paint.

Your test spot plan sounds good - please keep us posted on how it all plays out for you.

[XRDAD]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

Thanks Micheal!

I will look again for the tell tale signs of 'ticks'. I think I did see something like what you mentioned and I didn't miss the "DAMF on a Honda?!" post... If this IS haze, it's not what I thought it would look like.

I'm still trying to learn how to tell 'delicate' from 'hard' paint. Looks like I need to pick up Mike's book again.

Details coming soon!

[ARCStig]

Re: How can you tell if black is as black can be?

Reading this makes me happy I have a white car :P