Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

[tifosi1035]

Hello all,
Im new here as far as posting goes, but I have used this site for years as a refernce tool.

I have a 06 Audi S4 in black, and have it to a "professional" twice since i have owned it after seeing that it had a less than fresh look to the paint. There were a few swirls in the paint which is understandable for its age and what looked like haze, but turned out to be holograms just covered up by glaze im sure. The first man used a rotary im sure and glazed the car before waxing which hid many of the defects, and after washing a few times, it was evident that he hadnt corrested the issues.
The second "prefessional" came very highly recommended from many people I know, and has many clients with top notch cars, so he seemed the logical choice. He used a rotary as well, stating that he would use a 2 step method to first remove the holograms and swirls, then wax it multiple times to get a good shine. Upon arrival to pick it up I could tell it wasnt right with more holograms than before and buff lines down the side. He kept it one more night after seing that i wasnt happy, but even after redoing the whole car again, it still wasnt right.

I have taken care of my cars for years with waxing, polishing and some light scratch removal, all by hand, but it seems that i may be in over my head this time. These pictures were right after i got it back, and you will notice the terrible hood and holograms on the fenders, its just as bad on the c pillars, but hard to se in this picture. I have since polished the hood with ultimate polish follwed by a few coats of ultimate carnuba wax, looks much better, but still not perfect. I would like to know if I can get these holograms out by hand.I do not have a DA. and really dont want to as Im scared of making it worse. I would rather pay to have it done, but apprently there isnt a talented individual around here that can produce the resluts i expect. I appreciate any advice that any of you could give.

Cheers,
Dever

[davey g-force]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

Removing those by hand might be a bit of hard work, but it's definitiely possible IMO.

The UP you used is quite a mild product for defect correction. You would need to step it up to Ultimate Compound, followed by your UP, then your favourite wax.

Do a test spot with the UC first, and see if that yields the desired results. Let us know how it goes!

[tifosi1035]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

Removing those by hand might be a bit of hard work, but it's definitiely possible IMO.

The UP you used is quite a mild product for defect correction. You would need to step it up to Ultimate Compound, followed by your UP, then your favourite wax.

Do a test spot with the UC first, and see if that yields the desired results. Let us know how it goes!

I was afraid UC ould be too harsh as I have used it to remove scratches from our wrangler but i have not used it on an entire panel. I plan to use a foam pad, what kind of pressure would one use to try and get holograms out?

[NZ ECO1]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

Hi Dever,
I'm sorry to hear you haven't much luck with the pro's in your area. Using a rotary is a very particular skill and requires a lot of experience to get the results you are looking for. What you have is known as buffer trail and can be caused by poor technique, poor pad quality, an aggressive polish or compound and so on.
Really, it should be up to the detailer to remove these with a less aggresive polishing step. Interesting that he refers to a polish and wax as a two step method as really there is only 1 correction step going on there, then a wax. Generally there should be at least 1 more correction step in there to remove some of the side effects (ie some buffer trails??) of the first, more aggressive step.
There is certainly the potential to remove these by hand but if I were you I wouldnt be afraid to go out and get a DA. I understand your apprehension RE further damage but from your post you seem like a sensible/cautious guy and if you follow the advice on these forums you will do fine.
Anyway, back to hand removal, if that's the way you feel you want to go, go out and get yourself some Ultimate Polish (you mention you already have some?), Ultimate Compound and some new polishing pads. Tape off a small section (say 1 ft square) on the hood and start with the UP. Try to use the flat of your fingers on the pad rather than finger tips. On the shot of your hood it looks like there is some marring from using a polishing pad with your fingertips? See how you like the results and if you are happy, stop, if there is progress but not complete removal, go again with UP. No Progress, move up to UC on a fresh pad (You might have to refine that again with UP). Once you have a system that gives the result you are looking for you can move on to the rest of the car then top the whole thing off with a good wax.
I still can't help but feel you need to be going back to the detailer though, you are setting yourself up for a whole lot of work by hand and it still might not be perfect!

Good luck.

Cheers

Stephen

[tifosi1035]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

Hi Dever,
I'm sorry to hear you haven't much luck with the pro's in your area. Using a rotary is a very particular skill and requires a lot of experience to get the results you are looking for. What you have is known as buffer trail and can be caused by poor technique, poor pad quality, an aggressive polish or compound and so on.
Really, it should be up to the detailer to remove these with a less aggresive polishing step. Interesting that he refers to a polish and wax as a two step method as really there is only 1 correction step going on there, then a wax. Generally there should be at least 1 more correction step in there to remove some of the side effects (ie some buffer trails??) of the first, more aggressive step.
There is certainly the potential to remove these by hand but if I were you I wouldnt be afraid to go out and get a DA. I understand your apprehension RE further damage but from your post you seem like a sensible/cautious guy and if you follow the advice on these forums you will do fine.
Anyway, back to hand removal, if that's the way you feel you want to go, go out and get yourself some Ultimate Polish (you mention you already have some?), Ultimate Compound and some new polishing pads. Tape off a small section (say 1 ft square) on the hood and start with the UP. Try to use the flat of your fingers on the pad rather than finger tips. On the shot of your hood it looks like there is some marring from using a polishing pad with your fingertips? See how you like the results and if you are happy, stop, if there is progress but not complete removal, go again with UP. No Progress, move up to UC on a fresh pad (You might have to refine that again with UP). Once you have a system that gives the result you are looking for you can move on to the rest of the car then top the whole thing off with a good wax.
I still can't help but feel you need to be going back to the detailer though, you are setting yourself up for a whole lot of work by hand and it still might not be perfect!

Good luck.

Cheers

Stephen

I had the same intentions, and as far as the fingertips, this was taken before I got a hold of it with UP and wax, the small marls were from the "pro" .The hood is most likely about 80% better, but still has the holograms in it. In my process, I removed a lot of swirls, but the holograms remain.I plan ito tape off a section of the c pillar and go at it with UC. I wish there was a detailer in my area that gets involved like many of the posters on here. I would pay good money to get it corrected and then just have to maintain it myself, but if its up to me, i will do anything it takes to get my baby back to her former glory.

[davey g-force]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

You have already tried UP, so now have another go with UC, a foam pad and moderate pressure. If that doesn't work, try a heavier pressure and so on. As stated, try not to concentrate all the pressure on your fingertips.

[NZ ECO1]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

I had the same intentions, and as far as the fingertips, this was taken before I got a hold of it with UP and wax, the small marls were from the "pro" .The hood is most likely about 80% better, but still has the holograms in it. In my process, I removed a lot of swirls, but the holograms remain.I plan ito tape off a section of the c pillar and go at it with UC. I wish there was a detailer in my area that gets involved like many of the posters on here. I would pay good money to get it corrected and then just have to maintain it myself, but if its up to me, i will do anything it takes to get my baby back to her former glory.

From a detailers point of view you sound like a great customer! The finger marks suggest the paint may be on the soft side so not too much pressure with the UC on your first pass.
The reason I suggested the hood as a starting point is it's usually an easier place to work on and if you don't have a swirl finder, its an easier place to get the sun to hit the imperfections. That said I understand you may want a more discrete test spot so wherever you are most comfortable is the best place to start

[NZ ECO1]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

You have already tried UP, so now have another go with UC, a foam pad and moderate pressure. If that doesn't work, try a heavier pressure and so on. As stated, try not to concentrate all the pressure on your fingertips.

AS Mr Sparkle said, Moderate pressure with UC to start with. His post came up while I was typing mine

[Meticulous-Detail]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

If the above mentioned doesn't work.

Try picking up a DA (PC,Megs,Griots) and the Megs MF cutting and finishing discs with D300/D301 or D151. You will not get swirls or holograms with these products. I have had great results with D151 on a cutting disc to remove swirls and scratches. Plenty of vids online how to use a DA and the Megs products.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

It really annoys us to hear of detailers who can't do what should be a fairly straight forward correction, and in fact make the situation worse. You've gotten some really good advice here and it sounds like you've already got a pretty good handle on how this whole process really should go. Your own mention of taping off part of the C pillar to do a test spot already sounds like you're a step ahead of the two "pros" you've dealt with. In all honesty, we'd suggest doing that test spot on the hood, right there where the holograms are the worst.

As others have mentioned, you want to avoid the potential for fingertip pressure points or you'll just make matters worse. In fact, a worst case scenario of fingertip pressure points on soft paint can look like this:



This can be avoided pretty easily, even using the same product, by having some sort of holder or backing for the applicator pad. You can usually find these in the car care section at most auto parts stores and it may really help in your case.

We commonly read on detailing forums about how incredibly hard Audi paint is. From the looks of things, that's not necessarily the case with your car, and we've worked on other Audis that were very easy to correct. Exactly what your paint is like is something we can't say with 100% certainty, but from what we've seen so far, this shouldn't be too terribly difficult to correct. Certainly a DA buffer would make very quick work of this, and even if you've never used one before we have very high confidence that you straighten out this mess in a few hours, and wonder why you took so long to pick up a DA. It simply can not create the sort of buffer trails you see here, which were most definitely done with a rotary buffer (well, less than skilled use of a rotary - a real pro could have left this paint flawless with a rotary).

If you really want to stick with hand application, then pick up the aforementioned applicator and backer/holder, some Ultimate Compound (Ultimate Polish is, as others have stated, way too mild for this purpose) and apply it in an area no larger than about 18" x 18" if not a bit smaller. Work it with a bit of elbow grease either in a circular motion or straight lines, going over the area multiple times, and then wipe off the residue. Re-evaluate the area and do it again if you need to. Or try increasing the pressure a bit. What you never want to do is reach the point where you feel like you're scrubbing the paint - that never ends well! Make sure to have plenty of clean, dry, quality microfiber towels on hand for this, and work on a cool surface in the shade.

If you find you are struggling with very soft or delicate paint, read through The Challenge of Delicate Paint. And if you've started thinking about picking up a DA, read through D/A Buffing 101 - An Introduction to the G110v2 and similar tools; it really is as easy as that article makes it look.

[tifosi1035]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

Thanks for everyones advice. Here is a shot of the hood after just polish and a coat of wax. Im going for the hood and c pillars tomorrow with the UC.

[ethereal45]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

Looks quite a bit better, hard to tell without a direct light source on it though.

[MirandaAutoSpa]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

Looks quite a bit better, hard to tell without a direct light source on it though.

Yeah it looks better but clouded sunlight is deceiving. As many here have mentioned. a DA polisher is safe and very easy to use. A DA with either Ultimate Compound or Ultimate polish and Megs SoftBuff 2.0 Polishing Pad or Finishing pad should be able to remove and refine the paint to your liking.
Once you get used to the DA you will be surprised at the results and will most likely be polishing every vehicle you own, and perhaps others.

[tifosi1035]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

UPDATE:
I have had little time to keep my car clean, let alone get to some correction, but i did manage to get a test spot done today using UC, followed by UP. Below you can see the bufer trails on the boot, and after a test run on one small section of the trunk I went on to do the entire area. I was happy with the amount of trails it got out by hand, I would say 90%, but even after using the UP, there were still many swirls noticable.AM I missing a step here? I can live with the swirls for now knowing that the buffer trails can be removed, but am not happy with the overall apperance. Here is a before picture during the day, and an after at night with the brightest source i could find. Let me know what you think:

[davey g-force]

Re: Help fix what a "professional" couldnt and made worse

Let me know what you think:

I think you need a DA!