Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

[TrufflePig]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Bump

[cv_soccer]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Bump

What the heck does "BUMP" mean?

[Arne]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

.........................................................Bump

[TrufflePig]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

it means to BUMP the topic up and keep it going.

if you read the thread still waiting for answers.

[keesue]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

I am the CTO of a molecular design software development company which is used by research scientists to develop products. I can ask one of our research chemists to address this. We had a meeting yesterday on the efficacy of polymers. If they are interested to weigh in on this, I will post their input, if that is acceptable, as I doubt they would register. I don't think one of them has ever washed their cars by the looks of them.

[GeorgeG]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

I spent my entire career designing and manufacturing highly technical products. Countless debates raged about the merits of different fundamental technologies and competitors would try to differentiate themselves by making various claims about their choices. In the end however, the savy customer did not care about the fundamental technology (except among their engineers who are intrigued by the details). They had a problem to solve or a customer benefit that they wanted to offer in their product and needed to hit a price point. Additional factors such as product reliability and supply chain management also entered into the picture. The point is that the product functionality is far more useful than how it is made. Besides, most of these manufacturers, including M are not going to give you their trade secret formulas unless it's good for marketing such as to brag about a wax being "pure" carnuaba from Brazil, etc. Even then, you still don't know what's in the can. Pure carnauba would not spread easily with a foam pad.

Is it not more useful to hear from end users as to the outcomes that they experience when they use these different protection products? Which ones offer better depth (dark and light colors)? Which ones offer better gloss (dark vs light colors)? Which ones last longer? Which ones are easy to work with?

I encourage any such posts as they would be the most useful to help find a winning protocol. I cannot offer anything here because I have only used 26 for the last 20 years or so but maybe there is a better choice (20, 21,NXT, Gold, etc.). Some have even suggested say 26 over 20. Any ideas?

Oh ya - *BUMP*!

Thanks,

George

[slawinlaw]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

I am curious as to whether there is any evidence that polymer sealants withstand heat better, or last longer than carnaubas. Other than the oft posted remarks above, does anyone have any evidence?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

In the big picture...

You're either going to wash and wax your car or your not. If you're going to wash and wax your car you have a finite number of paint protection products to choose from.

After you apply the wax, (or whatever you want to classify the product you using as), you wipe off the reside and your done.

You can drive the car and enjoy it, and/or you can join a discussion forum and beat to death all the "What ifs" till the end of the world.

Think I'll just wax my car and drive it and enjoy it.

[slawinlaw]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Mike, don't get me wrong, I'm going to do both (wax and "what if?"). My interest is to determine weather #26 or #21 makes more sense in Memphis in July for a daily driver sitting out in 100 degree sun.

[Murr1525]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Meguiars says their best protecting wax is a synthetic (Nxt, 2.0 I suppose), so take that for what its worth.

But best protecting doesnt mean most durable, so dont get carried either.

If you already have both, do the hood with one and the trunk with the other.....

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Mike, don't get me wrong, I'm going to do both (wax and "what if?"). My interest is to determine weather #26 or #21 makes more sense in Memphis in July for a daily driver sitting out in 100 degree sun.

No problemo...

We've been posting to the Internet since Al Gore invented it and over the last 14 years, (at least, we started on the Usenet Newsgroups in rec.autos and then that group split into rec.autos.misc and rec.autos.tech), and over these years we've seen so many people invest so much time in arguing over the minutia of this craft and most of it is all for nothing.

This is why often times when AR threads pop up we try to focus things towards the big picture, not the minutia.

Word Definition: Minutia
mi·nu·ti·a mi-noo-shee-uh, -shuh
Word meaning: Precise details; small or trifling matters

That said, when a person has a sincere question then were always happy to do our best to answer it.

My interest is to determine weather #26 or #21 makes more sense in Memphis in July for a daily driver sitting out in 100 degree sun.

A lot of people think that M26 is a Carnauba based wax, this is probably because the name uses the words "Yellow" and "Wax" in the name, but the truth is that it is a "Blended Wax" so it's not really a wax "based-on" Carnauba, its a blend of key ingredients to give the user a better product than a wax based upon just the single ingredient Carnauba.

I've personally never seen wax melt off a car although I've been reading this posted by anonymous people on forums for over a decade. But for what it's worth... I've never seen it and I don't' know of any one else that's ever seen it.

M26 has been around for over 20 years and probably close to 30 years. The formula has been updated over the years whenever new technology becomes available and would benefit the product or the process.

Point being, M26 is a great wax and I would put it up against any of the boutique waxes for "appearance results" on BLACK paint any day of the week including any of the ridiculously prized Z products.

You can find HUNDREDS if not thousands of posts on this forum and other forums about how much people love this products. So it has a lot going for it and as far as I know.... nothing going against it.

Our chemist have told me that our best protecting product is NXT Tech Wax, I have not heard that there has been a change to this statement. Some people equate protection with how long a product lasts but that's not technically correct. the ability to resist attack and the ability to remain on the surface are two different things.

Any of these products, NXT Tech Wax, M21 and M26 are going to give you a great looking protected finish. In order to really know which one you like the best and works best for you is to spend the $20.00 to $30.00 to buy 2 of them and then test on your own.

We live on the desert and temps are over 100 all the time here in the summer and we never have any problems with NXT.

As soon as we can get our hands on NXT 2.0 thats what we're going to switch our cars over to, (for whatever that's worth).

We're going to use NXT 2.0 on this car in about 3 weeks because we believe it's going to take the finish to it's maximum potential for appearance value and protection.

In this picture it actually has just been polished with M80, followed by M66 and then two coats of NXT Tech Wax.





I can't tell you that M21 or NXT is going to work better than M26 in 100 degree temperatures because our chemists are very good at what they do and they understand the products we make are used in temperatures that are higher than 100 degrees and for however long M26 has been around we haven't been having any problems or complaints about it due to temperature.

Sorry to say but the best way to find out which product works best for you is to do like I did as a young buck and that's to spend some money and buy a few products and then start using them on your car.

Hope that helps a little...

[slawinlaw]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Thanks Mike! That is very helpful. I've used and I like Nxt, 21 and 26. Santa is supposed to bring the new Nxt too!

[Andy M.]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Still waiting for some answers on this one from Jon.

BUMP

[holmancv]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Mike;
Perhaps Jon has a background in Organic Chemistry and those are the words that have resulted from his education? I know that the integral of one over x equals the natural log of x plus some constant but I don't know what book I learned it from. Go figure.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Synthetic Polymer/Sealant vs. Wax

Mike;
Perhaps Jon has a background in Organic Chemistry and those are the words that have resulted from his education? I know that the integral of one over x equals the natural log of x plus some constant but I don't know what book I learned it from. Go figure.

Jon's a good guy and always offers lots of great information, at the time of this post he was in trouble on another forum for the same kind of thing, posting information without giving credit to where he obtained the information.

Here's the problem...

I sent his post to one of our chemist, just like I sent this post to one of our chemists and they refuted his statements and sent it back to me in an e-mail. At that time I did not have time to post their response back to the forum because we usually don't like to get involved in this kind of drivel.

Then later I was give permission to post it but could no longer locate the e-mail.

My fault but it doesn't change the fact that they refuted what he wrote just like they did here.

The good and the bad types of silicone

Silicone:
[: or polysiloxanes, are inorganic polymers consisting of a silicon-oxygen backbone (...-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-...) with side groups attached to the silicon atoms]

•Good: Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS) is a basically inert, water based, amino functional polymer resin that doesn't migrate (dry out) the plasticizers from materials, has less UV radiation absorption and dust attraction properties. Chemists use water-in-oil emulsions, to reduce emulsion particle size, to stabilize emulsions, and to improve spreading and coverage of wax products. Most modern silicone formulas are water soluble (no petroleum), and are completely inert.The best way to describe most forms of silicone is to think of it as a man-made wax ester. Silicone is created by the reaction generated when you combine fatty acids with Polydimethylsiloxane

•The Bad: Dimethyl is derived from Aromatic hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates, and is usually formulated with a solvent, hexane and petroleum oils, which are environmentally unsound and give a slick, oily finish, which attracts dust and dirt and amplifies sunlight causing vinyl and most plastics to dry out and crack, this type of silicone also causes ‘sling’, which means the product will land on body panels causing a black stain. It also causes rubber compounds along with sun iteration to remove the micro-wax in tyres as well as its carbon black (it's what makes tyre’s the colour they are)

•And The Ugly: Silicone is an active ingredient in sun UV amplification. As a low quality silicone dressing evaporates away, the silicone oil is left behind, the sun then amplifies these residues, and the drying process is accelerated. This causes rubber, EDPM, vinyl and plastics to dry out, which turns them grey or brown, losing their flexibility and prematurely fail. Water-based dressings do not contain oils or petroleum distillates and provide a non- greasy, natural looking satin finish.

•For a Few Dollars More: Hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates can be further purified, re-distilled, reacted and combined with various other chemicals to produce a wide range of environmentally safe (water-based) and useful silicone products.

Here's our chemists reply to which he never refuted and to which he also never provide where he obtained his information.

In this thread posted in our Interior Care Forum, The good and the bad types of silicone, one of our forum members posted a reply including information on silicones that our R&D department concluded was filled with misinformation and inaccuracies.

Below we have included some information that counters what the forum member posted to demonstrate that you can't always believe what you read on the Internet. Often times people on the Internet merely copy and paste information found on other websites by doing a simple google search. Often times this information is out of context as well as inaccurate and unreliable.


Meguiar's Statement on silicones as it relates to the post on our forum in the above included link.
Silicones, or polysiloxanes, are inorganic synthetic polymers consisting of a silicon-oxygen backbone that can be composed into a wide variety of materials. They can vary in consistency from liquid to gel to rubber to hard plastic. The most common type is linear Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS).

PDMS are odorless, colorless, water resistant, chemical resistant, oxidation resistant, stable at high temperature, and do not conduct electricity. PDMS are considered inert and impervious to the effects of aging, weather, sunlight, moisture, heat, cold, and some chemical assaults.

Thus, PDMS are ideal for and found in many products, such as lubricants, insulation, adhesives, sealants, gaskets, car parts, medical devices, children toys, dishware, gloss enhancer and even Silly Putty

There are many misunderstandings and misstatements about silicones and their use in automotive appearance products. To help and clarify and provide a basis of scientific fact here are just a few examples:

Notes:
The text in Red was posted by a forum member.
The text in Back is from a professional chemist.


- “Dimethyl is derived from Aromatic hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates”
Not true… They are not from “Aromatic” hydrocarbons.


- “Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) is a basically inert, water based”
Not true.... PDMS is oil soluble.


- “The best way to describe most forms of silicone is to think of it as a man-made wax ester."
Not true... It is not a wax, not an ester, it is a unique chemistry based upon inorganic materials.


- “Silicone is created by the reaction generated when you combine fatty acids with Polydimethylsiloxane”
Not true…PDMS is non-reactive.


- “Dimethyl causes vinyl and most plastics to dry out and crack”
Not true… PDMS are odorless, colorless, water resistant, chemical resistant, oxidation resistant, stable at high temperature, and do not conduct electricity. PDMS are considered inert and impervious to the effects of aging, weather, sunlight, moisture, heat, cold, and some chemical assaults.


- “This type of silicone also causes ‘sling’,"
Not true… Anything placed on tires will have a tendency to sling due to centrifugal force.


- “Hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates can be further purified, re-distilled, reacted and combined with various other chemicals to produce a wide range of environmentally safe (water-based) and useful silicone products.”
Not true… Silicones are not hydrocarbon distillates


- “Silicone is an active ingredient in sun UV amplification."
Not true… Silicone does not change the effects of sunlight and its properties.


- “As a low quality silicone dressing evaporates away, the silicone oil is left behind, the sun then amplifies these residues, and the drying process is accelerated.”
Not true… PDMS that are used in tire products do not evaporate, nor do they change the effects of sunlight and it’s properties.

End of Meguiar's Statement



Note the goal here is not to embarrass or disparage anyone on our forum from posting information and specifically information on complex topics such as the chemistry of silicones, but to point out that it's easy to copy and paste information found on other websites or out of a book from the library, but as scientific sounding as the information may read, if the person posting the information is not a professional chemist, trained in the profession of chemistry, then anything they post should be questioned, and if questioned, the person posting it should be able to back it up with scientific facts or discontinue posting information they can't back up and don't generate themselves from their own learned knowledge on the subject.


It's important to remember that the goal of Meguiar's Online is to help people get the best results from their time, money and efforts. As such, the primary focus of our our discussions should be on the performance of the products, not the ingredients in our products and the chemistry behind them.

Meguiar's, just like every other company in the business of manufacturing car care chemicals is not going to tell everyone what's in our products and how they are made. Its ridiculous to even think that any car wax manufacture would do this.

It's okay to be interested as well as curious as to what's in a product and how it works, I can assure you I'm interested and curious in these things also. But at the end of the day, the big picture is the big picture, and that's choosing and using the right products for the job and the results you achieve.

That's what this forum is here for, that's our goal, helping you to choose and use the correct product in the right way and achieve the results you're looking for.


So at this time you can only go by what I've said about what our chemist wrote because I can't find the e-mail where they tore this apart.



I could see if one of the chemists would take a look at this and dissect it again but they are usually too busy for this kind of drama and the big picture was he was wrong and wouldn't provide any sources to back up what he wrote in both of his posts like this and the problem with post like his is if no one refutes it then it's accepted as gospel truth and that's how BAD information circulates all over the Internet.

You know if he can whip out posts like the one that's the topic of both of the threads in this thread, then shouldn't he be able to whip out his sources or back up his claims instead of hiding? We gave him MONTHS to reply and Nada, Zilch, Zero...

Kind of draws attention to ones credibility...


Oh yeah...

Seeing how this is your first post to our forum...




Welcome to Meguiar's Online

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