Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

[tapp1]

I attended a buffing school this weekend, which for the most part was really good. The teacher works for a large car care company that produces products for other national brands as well as their own brand.

Anyways, he says you only need one coat of wax because the second coat doesn't stick. He used the analogy of why would you want to paint on a waxed surface to justify his claim.

He also says a final wipe down is useless after waxing, and it didn't recommend going over the car with a quick detailer.

Thoughts?

[CHzo6]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

You typically do 2 coats of wax to ensure even coverage, not because you can layer it. The Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in at some point.

[Shawn T.]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

To a certain extent, it is possible to layer a non-cleaning, low solvent based wax.

I remember seeing a post on Autogeeek where someone tested this theiry using measurements and realized that more wax was added when layered. The same amount wasn't added as the first coat though.

I don't really know if I completely understand the painting analogy he used. Wax and paint are totally different.

[jfelbab]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

I think where he is coming from is this.

Wax contains solvents and oils to make it easy to apply. When you reapply another coat over the first these solvents most likely re-dissolove the wax initially applied.

A coat of wax is microscopically thin. Anytime you rub it with a MF you are likely removing a fraction of that coating.

Once you remove the initial hazed wax, and no streaks are apparent, why do another wipedown?

[tcope1]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

As mentioned above, I think where he is coming from is years ago when people claimed putting many coats of the same wax was better then just one. From what I remember, the people claiming this got paid to apply those layers.

Applying the same product (wax) many times does not make it thicker... it only insures even coverage. However, you can layer some products. For example, I apply a synthetic sealer that bonds to the paint. I wait 24 hours for it to cure and then I apply a caranuba wax over it (M16). I can tell you without a doubt that the M16 does layer over the sealer. But if I were to apply another layer of M16 I'd simple allow the new application to add oils back into the old application and "rehydrate" it to a certain extent. I'd then remove almost everything to the same extent when I buffed it off.

Just my personal thoughts. I've never been to "wax school".

[Murr1525]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

What kind of final wipedown?

And QDing Can be a bit risky on a dirty finish. A QD is only for light dust, and hard to tell where the cut off is. Also Meguiars does not recomend QDing right after waxing either.

[Andrew C.]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

You also have to take into account that whether you apply 1 layer of wax or 50 layers, no matter if you think there are 50 layers that stuck or not, it is only going to last so long. Chances are that if you apply 50 layers of wax, it will not last much longer than 1 layer.

The elements are harsh, and wax can only do so much. You get road salt on your 50 layers, it's done for. Your 50 layers are sitting outside in the blazing hot summer heat, it's being diminished or weakened. You get bird poo on your 50 layers, and that area is now wax free.

While 50 layers is an exaggeration, I was just using it as an example to make a point.

I'm not opposed to doing 2 layers for even coverage, or say laying down a carnauba on top of a synthetic, but I can't stand it when people say "Oh yeah, I got at least 6 layers of wax on my car."

Just my 2 cents.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

Meguiar's official stance on this is that we recommend applying two thin coats of wax to ensure uniform coverage, protection and appearance.

Let's look at this a bit deeper, though.

First off, if you're applying a properly thin coat of wax, especially on a light colored vehicle, it can be difficult to clearly see where you've applied and where you might have missed. Further, a properly thin coat also means you could easily miss a spot. Don't forget, no matter how thick you apply your wax, only so much is going to bond and be left behind when you wipe off the haze. A second coat ensures full coverage.

Second, depending on the particular wax/sealant, it could very well be the case where the solvents or "carrier ingredients" in the product are sufficiently powerful to break down the first layer and remove some, or all of it. Certainly in the case of a cleaner wax the second coat will effectively remove the first. But even with a non cleaner wax, in some cases the ingredients in the second application could be breaking down the first layer. With a cross linking polymer product the chance of this happening is even less, though.

But can you continue to apply layer on top of layer with an ever increasing film build? We don't believe you can, no. And a member of the British detailing forum did a lab test a few years ago using a variety of waxes. He works in lab where they routinely test and measure films and coatings, so he had some very specialized equipment at his disposal. While he did not use any Meguiar's waxes in his test, we would expect his results to be the same if he had used our products. And what were his results? In a nutshell, he found that whether a thick or thin application was used, virtually the same amount was left behind. When applying a second coat he saw an increase in overall thickness that was just fractionally larger than the first application. With a third application his net result was often a loss in overall film thickness. This was true with all the waxes he tested, and with very similar results across the board.

Another aspect of his test was to subject the dried wax to prolonged "buffing", rather than simply wiping off the excess and being done with it. We recommend that once the wax has dried you simply wipe it off, without continually "buffing" as if to bring up even more gloss. It simply does not work that way - and his test showed this as well. If he continued to "buff" the wax, all he accomplished was the removal of product - product that you want to leave behind for gloss, protection, etc. So don't keep buffing once you've wiped off the haze!

As for giving the finish a final wipe down with a quick detail spray of some sort, following wipe off the hazed wax - if you don't have to, why would you? In some cases, like if you have a bit of an uneven appearance or streaking with a polymer product, this very light wipe down can easily cure that issue. If you're using an old school carnauba wax that generates a fair bit of dust once it's dried, you might want to give it wipe down to collect the dust. But is it otherwise needed as a final wipe down following waxing? Nope.

[hemi]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

I have done some M105 for corrections, M205 on entire vehicle followed by 2 coats of Ultimate Liquid Wax.
So 2 coats of sealant have been applied,what would happend to the surface if you go over it say in 2 or 3 days with a coat of M26 carnauba wax ? Does it mix with the sealant,remove some of the sealant or have no effect being its a wax applied over a sealant?

I also thought I read somewhere on this forum that several coats would also affect the clarity of the finish, how is that possible if the surface of protection gets thinner at 3 coats?

One more question,Ultimate Liquid wax is an awesome sealant, I wouldnt think the ingredients change that much from sealant to sealant,how can the Z...o brand claim that the more coats that are applied,the better and more reflective the surface gets ?

If that were possible,I am sure Meguiars chemists could easily follow suit with an equal or better product with no problem!

[CHzo6]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

One more question,Ultimate Liquid wax is an awesome sealant, I wouldnt think the ingredients change that much from sealant to sealant,how can the Z...o brand claim that the more coats that are applied,the better and more reflective the surface gets ?

The more you use, the more they sell!

[Blueline]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

You typically do 2 coats of wax to ensure even coverage, not because you can layer it. The Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in at some point.

Maybe, and I say maybe, on a white car, but an any medium to dark car, it is quite easy to see when a spot is missed. It is like the old shampoo (and still on some bottles)
"Lather, rinse, REPEAT"" Your shampoo needlessly lasts half as long.

[CHzo6]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

There are actually a lot of waxes on the market that are clear and can be difficult to see where a spot is missed.

[chet31]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

Missing a spot while waxing does not seem disastrous.

[BillyJack]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

I attended a buffing school this weekend, which for the most part was really good. The teacher works for a large car care company that produces products for other national brands as well as their own brand.
Anyways, he says you only need one coat of wax because the second coat doesn't stick. He used the analogy of why would you want to paint on a waxed surface to justify his claim.

Thoughts?

I think the key word here is "need"
Other than assuring complete coverage, you don't really "need" more than one good coat. Those of us who are obsessed enough to frequent this forum have no problem going beyond need.
I've already quartered the hood on my burgundy El Camino as a test. The entire hood was done with NXT paste. then 3 sections were layered, one with Collinite 915, one with M26 and one with another pass of NXT. The differences were very subtle, but there were differences. That was all I needed to know to justify the extra step.

Bill

[wifpd4]

Re: Went to a buffing and was told layering wax is a myth? It doesn't work?

Maybe, and I say maybe, on a white car, but an any medium to dark car, it is quite easy to see when a spot is missed. It is like the old shampoo (and still on some bottles)
"Lather, rinse, REPEAT"" Your shampoo needlessly lasts half as long.

This may very well be true, but the last black car I did using a DA I used a different sized pad for the second coat to ensure coverage. Excessive perhaps.