Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

[gijoe985]

I started a thread a while back about how our high school auto class is trying put together a detailing program. I'd like to show kids the basics of detailing, but also have some pro level stuff for those students who really show interest. I'm trying to minimize the amount of products we buy, while also having the right products for the right situation.

There are so many products out there, and I would be totally lost if it weren't for the awesome descriptions given on the autogeek product page. Their product descriptions are much more detailed than the actual Meguiars site, and they even suggest complementary products. I feel somewhat bad not shopping there, considering I use them exclusively for window shopping.

Anyway, I'd like to get products for steps 2-4 that compliment each other, while also provide options for different levels of work needed.

I like the idea of doing a #105 & #205 combo. Seems like a potent 1-2 punch. If I got those, would I need to look for an intermediate cutting compound? Or maybe just change up the technique to accommodate? I had considered getting the DACP. That'd give me a nice middle ground.

Then for specifically polishing and getting into waxing. It seems that I would not need a polish with the #205 or the DACP. Though I had considered having some #3 around. Or if not that #6 or #7. If I went with #6 (or #66), do I not need wax? Then again, even though #6 has wax, should I get wax anyway in order to have wax when the polishing is not needed.

I need to read up on Poly sealants, like #20. I don't really know how they line up with a wax. How do they compare and contrast?

Lastly, I assume we'll be getting a line of wax, though I haven't determined if we should go carnauba (#26) or something else.


I had a lot of suggestions to go with the consumer line, Scratchx, UC, etc, and I will probably have some, but it is nice being able to get things in gallon sizes. Thanks in advance for all the help, I know that there is a lot of questions on here, so tackle one or tackle them all if you dare...

[Murr1525]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

I like the idea of doing a #105 & #205 combo. Seems like a potent 1-2 punch. If I got those, would I need to look for an intermediate cutting compound? Or maybe just change up the technique to accommodate? I had considered getting the DACP. That'd give me a nice middle ground.

#105 and #205 would not be bad to have around. Though they are meant for newer (as in age) paints. Older paints may want a product with more oils. #80 is certainly good for this, and could look at UC I guess if you needed something stronger.

Then for specifically polishing and getting into waxing. It seems that I would not need a polish with the #205 or the DACP. Though I had considered having some #3 around. Or if not that #6 or #7. If I went with #6 (or #66), do I not need wax? Then again, even though #6 has wax, should I get wax anyway in order to have wax when the polishing is not needed.

Losing track here...

#205 = Mild Cleaner/Polish
#3 = Pure Polish
#7 = Pure Polish
#6 = Cleaner/Wax
#66 = Cleaner/Wax

I think we kind of mentioned this in your other thread, a very popular quick detail is a cleaner/wax followed by a wax. (Heck just a cleaner/wax is better than a lot of details out there). But putting it all into one step could lose some teaching value.

As for a pure polish, it is optional. Older and single stage paints will see the most benefit from it, so probably something to have some of around, if just small bottles.

#7 is kind of top of the line.

And yes, you would want a regular wax product after. (#21, #26, etc...)

I need to read up on Poly sealants, like #20. I don't really know how they line up with a wax. How do they compare and contrast?

Mostly personal preference. Some will say a carnuba looks richer, while a synthetic looks shinier.

Though #20 = mild cleaner/wax.

Lastly, I assume we'll be getting a line of wax, though I haven't determined if we should go carnauba (#26) or something else.

Dont get confused by names... focus on synthetic vs carnuba (usually blended with some synthetic).

#21 2.0 would be your bulk synthetic wax, and #26 your bulk carnuba wax.

If you wanted to give the customers options, then have both. If not, #21 would probably be more durable. #26 a bit more 'classic'.

[Shawn T.]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

Thats about as good of a response as you're going to get!

[gijoe985]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

Great response, though I still am left with a lot of options.

When you said older paints may want more oils, do you mean SS paints, or older BC/CC paints? Would using 80 in conjunction with another product be a better overall option that 105? 105 is spendy, so if it isn't as versatile as something else, that'd be a deciding factor.

I guess I have a bit of a confusion between cleaners and polishes. I always kinda bunched them together. I always thought that a cleaner was basically just a fine abrasive, like a polish.

I could do 85/95, DACP, #7, and then #21 .

I think we'll go with #21 for sealing.



Anyway, how does the 85/95, DACP, 7 combo look? I figure the three should give you some options at different points on the cutting scale to work with.

[gijoe985]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

Also, just because students have asked and I have not been able to give an answer that I really like- What is the primary difference between the terms compounding, polishing, and buffing?

[greg0303]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

Great response, though I still am left with a lot of options.

When you said older paints may want more oils, do you mean SS paints, or older BC/CC paints? Would using 80 in conjunction with another product be a better overall option that 105? 105 is spendy, so if it isn't as versatile as something else, that'd be a deciding factor.

Older paints SS, BC/CC open more so they absorb more polishing oils. They become less dense over time.
M80 will moisture paint very well due to its ingredients. So will M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish, but less than M80.
M105 is Meguiar's most aggressive paint cleaner/ compound. If serious defect removal needed (deep scratches, sanding marks, etching, heavy oxidation) that's the product to go.

I guess I have a bit of a confusion between cleaners and polishes. I always kinda bunched them together. I always thought that a cleaner was basically just a fine abrasive, like a polish.

There are paint cleaners and cleaner polishes. If polish also has abrasives/ cutting ability it can remove paint/ defects.

I could do 85/95, DACP, #7, and then #21 .

M85/ M95 are rotary only products. M07 is a pure polish (no abrasives).

Any defining differences between 85 and 95? Reading the descriptions they are quite similar, at least they are similar cut levels, so it must be a different factor. Is 95 non diminishing?

M95 is more aggressive. M85 uses DAT technology (diminishing abrasives) while M95 is SMAT product (non diminishing super micro abrasives).

I think we'll go with #21 for sealing.

It's gonna offer long lasting protection.



Anyway, how does the 85, DACP, 7 combo look? I figure the three should give you some options at different points on the cutting scale to work with.

It will work. M83 is a good follow up after M84/ M85 compounds and M07 is great for gloss restoration.

[Murr1525]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

When you said older paints may want more oils, do you mean SS paints, or older BC/CC paints?

Like mentioned above, older paint in general 'opens' up more (lose the oils, solvents). New CC/BC would be least open, old SS most open.

Would using 80 in conjunction with another product be a better overall option that 105? 105 is spendy, so if it isn't as versatile as something else, that'd be a deciding factor.

#105 is strong, but not necessarily always the first step.

Until #105/UC came out, #80 was the standard product used in teaching classes at Meguiars. You can check the old threads... it will still fix a lot. And #205 is around that ball park.

And of course depending on the goals of the detail... if the goal isnt a show car finish, just really good, and #80 leaves a few deeper swirls behind, oh well.

We'd have to do the math on how UC adds up compared to #105, price wise as well.

I guess I have a bit of a confusion between cleaners and polishes. I always kinda bunched them together. I always thought that a cleaner was basically just a fine abrasive, like a polish.

You get caught up in different companies terminology, and that just makes it harder.

For Meguiars:

A cleaner will remove dirt in the pores, and if strong enough, applied properly, etc, can remove swirls, defects.

A polish is just oils that can nourish the paint, fill in the voids, creating a healthier better looking finish.

For instance, the NuFinish Car Polish is actually a cleaner/wax, and many older car polishes are 'rocks in a bottle'.

I could do 85/95, DACP, #7, and then #21 .

I think we'll go with #21 for sealing.

I really doubt you want to be involved with #85/95.

They are rotary only I believe, and pretty strong.

Also, just because students have asked and I have not been able to give an answer that I really like- What is the primary difference between the terms compounding, polishing, and buffing?

Kind of going back to the above, different companies terminology, and different ages/generations of people.

Like I said, Meguiars would say 'polishing' is adding polishing oils to the paint. I guess Meguiars would also say that 'compounding' is using a compound type product (usually a pretty strong type of product) and 'buffing' is using a buffer.

But you can see all the possibilities....

[Shawn T.]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

I would recommend against using 85 on a DA. Is there a reaspn you don't want to use Ultimate Compound? It's going to offer better cut and overall finish than 85 or 84. It will also work on single stage paint even though M80 may work better due to its polishing oils.

[Murr1525]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

At list price, UC = $.65/ounce, and gallon of #105 = $.77/ounce.

So generally better with UC if needed... and you can find things lower than list price.

[gijoe985]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

Not using UC is only because it doesn't come in bulk, but I am not totally opposed.

I'm not afraid of having some rotary only products, namely because I plan on having my advanced students learning on the rotary buffers and I figure if we are going to be using a serious compound, we might as well be using the serious machine.

I was actually thinking about just going with the procedure of using rotary for all of the deep stuff and then using DA for swirl removal and polish.

I've read a lot of great reviews of the #85. And nobody has commented their thoughts of using DACP, but I have read great things on here about that too. Realistically they are all good products, it is just a matter of finding the ones that will transition from one to the other well.

I think going with something with oils will be the best bet since it will work well on old paints, but not hurt new. Again, being versatile is going to be our #1 goal.

How about this, if you guys were going to pick 3 products, to work on most vehicles, that could cover deep scratches all the way through polishing, what would you pick? Let's assume I'll finish it off with #21.

[Murr1525]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

A DA and UC would go fairly deep, and UC is more DA friendly, but not for rotary use.

#83 is ok... Its in between #80/SwirlX/#205 and #105/UC, some people find it trickier to use. I wouldnt call it critical if UC is an option.

[greg0303]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

I just would like to point out one thing.

Michael Stoops used this sentence one day: "Paint wants what paint wants".

There are no universal products which work on every type of paint finishes. It all depends on its type. On some hard paints aggressive paint cleaner will be needed for defect removal but on some delicate ones even a cleaner polish can do a fantastic job.

Meguiar's always recommends to go with the least aggressive method and do test spots to make sure the right product has been chosen. And they have all products for every situation/ need.

[BS MXRacer]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

What about the DA Microfiber system? With this system you can achieve great results while staying with the DA machine for safety (even when working on really hard paint).

The D300 Correction Compound when paired with the MF cutting pad is extremely easy to use. Yet offers great cut, very little dusting, long buffing cycles, doesn't require a lot of tool speed variation, easy wipe off, and the safety of the DA.

Follow that up with the new D301 Finishing Wax and the MF Finishing pad will refine the finish more for a great result. D301 is a light cleaner/wax so you add some protection at the same time. The protection level is on par with M26. If the customer wants more protection then you top it with M21.

Check out the write-up on the system by Mike Stoops for more info here. There are also numerous reviews in the 2011 new product reviews section.

Couple of the advantages are that it keeps you from buying to separate machines which are costly, The D300/D301 come in gallon sizes, D300 is regularly less expensive than M105.

The system also teaches some great lessons:
1) Pad cleaning is essential for good results (no matter the pad type)
2) Technique while handling the buffer is critical
3) Increasing tool speed isn't the only way to increase cutting ability
4) Gets students to think about other ways to increase cut (slower arm speed, smaller work area, more pressure)

[Shawn T.]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

What about the DA Microfiber system? With this system you can achieve great results while staying with the DA machine for safety (even when working on really hard paint).

The D300 Correction Compound when paired with the MF cutting pad is extremely easy to use. Yet offers great cut, very little dusting, long buffing cycles, doesn't require a lot of tool speed variation, easy wipe off, and the safety of the DA.

Follow that up with the new D301 Finishing Wax and the MF Finishing pad will refine the finish more for a great result. D301 is a light cleaner/wax so you add some protection at the same time. The protection level is on par with M26. If the customer wants more protection then you top it with M21.

Check out the write-up on the system by Mike Stoops for more info here. There are also numerous reviews in the 2011 new product reviews section.

Couple of the advantages are that it keeps you from buying to separate machines which are costly, The D300/D301 come in gallon sizes, D300 is regularly less expensive than M105.

The system also teaches some great lessons:
1) Pad cleaning is essential for good results (no matter the pad type)
2) Technique while handling the buffer is critical
3) Increasing tool speed isn't the only way to increase cutting ability
4) Gets students to think about other ways to increase cut (slower arm speed, smaller work area, more pressure)

I agree. Get them learning the newest technology out there. This sytem can handle a lot of imperfections on most factory paint jobs. 105/205 combo is fantastic but why not go into this using the newest items that will provide results that many times mirror that of rotary buffer with the safety and ease of use of a DA.

[Murr1525]

Re: Pro Line- What to choose for shop class?

The microfiber system certainly is an option also, and would let you cover a wide range of problems with 2 pads and 2 products and 1 backing plate.

Though it is kind of a whole new way of teaching and thinking of detailing, which can complicate things more.

And yeah, the combining steps thing....

Lots of options really. I guess it comes down to my usual school problem. Is it better to teach the old way step by step, or the way things actually are done in a job environment. I think I got some of both in college, and neither really was perfect.

Or even throwing in some hand applied #7 on a classic car like it is a favorite hobby.