Having a heck of a time removing swirls/micro marring

[90nissan300zx]

First off, this is my very first post. My name is Steve and I own a black 1990 Nissan 300zx. I've done extensive research on how to use buffers with different pads and compounds/polishes. I finally decided to join this forum because I have come across a lot of useful information on here.

Being that I own a black car, it is extremely difficult to keep clean/keep marks out of the paint. This past July I ended up paying out of pocket to have the front end (bumper, hood and both fenders) professionally repainted due to 20 years of rock chips. The paint work was done locally by a very reputable bodyshop that I would trust with any car. The paint job turned out fantastic. The mistake that I made was after the first couple of months, I washed the entire car continuously, probably every other day. Which ended up leaving fine marks/swirls throughout the paint; more specifically the new paint because it was so soft (oops). So instead of paying $200+ dollars and having my entire car buffed, I decided to take that $200 and buy a PC DA with an LC pad set and some compound/polish. That way I would not only end up with a near-perfect looking car but I would also have the experience under my belt to do it again in the future (if need be) and on other cars.

So when I got all of my buffing equipment, I did extensive homework on pad/compound/polish combinations. So the first compound I use was Meguiars Ultimate Compound on a 6.5" Orange LC pad on a 5" backing plate. I did small sections at a time, taking my time with each and every pass. The whole car already looked much better than before under halogen lights but there were still swirls. So I went to a White LC pad with Meguiars SwirlX. I have to say, I hated the SwirlX. Once on the car it did not want to come back off. No matter how long or how short I buffed a spot. I could buff a 24"x24" spot all day long and the stuff did not want to wipe off. I had to use a 50/50 mixture of distilled water and alcohol to wipe it all off. I went as far as doing my hood and that was it. I don't understand why it has gotten such great reviews from everyone but worked so terrible for me.
So I went to my local parts store and picked up some Meguiars #80 (speed glaze) since everyone raved about it. I again used the White LC pad (after cleaning it very well, of course). Did the hood of my car to see what results I got.

I started the buffer on speed 3 to spread it over a 24"x24" section then went up to speed 5 to work the polish in. Polished each section a couple of minutes until the polish appeared to start to dry. After doing my entire hood, I was extremely pleased with the results. So without even thinking to do a 50/50 wipe, I continued to do the rest of the car.

Well 2 days later I go back into the garage and decided to check everything out again under the halogens.... AHHHHH!! The swirls were back! And all the car has been doing is sitting there untouched/un-driven! I forgot the #80 had fillers and my conclusion was that maybe the oils evaporated over 2 days? I don't know but I was extremely frustrated at this point.

So after taking a day to chill out and think about things, I decided to re-examine my car...I noticed the swirls were GREATLY reduced compared to before the #80, but there were still there....Just barely.

So I made sure my hood was as 'dust free' as possible, cleaned up the area, broke out the #80 again only this time with a LC green pad. I figured that my problem is - is that I (firstly) have a black car with real soft paint.

So after doing my entire hood with the green pad and #80, I did a 50/50 wipe down and everything appeared to be damn near gone. So I continued to do the bumper. The bumper as well appeared to be near perfect after a wipedown. So on to the nose panel, then the fenders...

So I thought everything was much better until I finished with the entire front end of the car, wiped it all down and waited an hour and went back and re-examined...Now it appears that I have super-fine micro marring; not really swirls. Just super, super light straight scratches that can be viewed at certain angles. Some worse than others.

Still, it IS better than before. But the marks are still all there, just very faint. I'm afraid they will still show up in the sunlight.

So tonight I ordered a new pad kit from LC only this time I ordered 5.5" with a free sample of Menzerna Super Finish PO 106 FA. My dad also had some Meguiars #82 (Swirl Free Polish) hanging around as well. Now I still have a Grey 6.5" LC pad that is NEW. I was thinking of maybe trying the #82 on the Grey pad tomorrow to see if that would remove anything but the Grey pad (to my knowledge) isn't made to remove any defects or do any paint correction. I was just thinking that maybe because my paint is so soft it might just work? And I was wondering if anyone had any input on the #82/Grey Pad combo? Or even maybe use the Green pad with #82?

The 5.5" pads are on their way and I'll use those for smaller/more awkward places that I haven't done yet. And as far as the Menzerna sample, I am not familiar with this product but it was free lol.

I would love to finally be able to use my LSP but I want the best possible surface I can get first! Thanks for any help guys.

Steve

[Shawn T.]

Re: Having a heck of a time removing swirls/micro marring

"The paint job turned out fantastic. The mistake that I made was after the first couple of months, I washed the entire car continuously, probably every other day. Which ended up leaving fine marks/swirls throughout the paint; more specifically the new paint because it was so soft (oops)."

Technique is very important when washing a car. The wrong technique will lead to swirls as you have seen. Exactly what technique are you using? I would hope you are using the Two Bucket Method with at least one Grit Guard in the rinse bucket (ask if you don't know what I'm talking about).

Remember, technique is even more important on black paint becasue black shows all defects. The finest and faintest of micro-marring will show. I have soft metallic Black Honda paint so I know that feeling. But, technique, technique, technique is crucial.




"So I went to a White LC pad with Meguiars SwirlX. I have to say, I hated the SwirlX. Once on the car it did not want to come back off. No matter how long or how short I buffed a spot. I could buff a 24"x24" spot all day long and the stuff did not want to wipe off. I had to use a 50/50 mixture of distilled water and alcohol to wipe it all off. I went as far as doing my hood and that was it. I don't understand why it has gotten such great reviews from everyone but worked so terrible for me."

I have head several people say this about Swirlx but I have never had this problem. In fact, Swirlx is one of my favorite products. How much product are you using? You may not be using enough. You never want the product to dry on the paint because that will lead to dry buffing which can easily mar the paint. Always wet buff or always wipe the product off before it dries for best results.


"I started the buffer on speed 3 to spread it over a 24"x24" section then went up to speed 5 to work the polish in. Polished each section a couple of minutes until the polish appeared to start to dry. After doing my entire hood, I was extremely pleased with the results. So without even thinking to do a 50/50 wipe, I continued to do the rest of the car."


M80 is a fantastic product and I really like it also. It's important though to understand the difference between M80 and a product like Swirlx. They have very similar cut but they use a different kind of abrasive.

M80 uses DAT (Diminishing Abrasive Technology) which means that the abrasives (don't overthink this word) in the product brea down as you work them so that their is a specific working time that must be used. I usually use anywhere from 4-5 section passes when using M80 in order to ensure that the product is sufficiently broken down and that I have used the product to it's fullest. M80 is also famous for being, according to Mike Phillips "M07 on steroids." M07 is a pure polish and is purely oil. M80 uses the same oils as M07 but also has some abrasives so that it can remove light swirls. M07, M80, M83 were all designed for single stage paints for specific reasons but that is a whole different topic. The oils in M80 provide a fantastic, wet shine to dark colors while the oils nourish the paint. In conclusion, 1) use 4-5 section passes 2) use medium pressure to begin and end with only the weight of the machine 3) use speed 4 instead of 5 4) do not wipe it down with 50/50 IPA as that will remove any oils left by M80.

Swirlx, as aforementioned, has a similar cut to M80. However, Swirlx uses SMAT (Super Micro Abrasive Technology) which means that the abrasives do not break down. They continue to work as you work. This allows a lot more operator control over the product. You can work it for 1 pass if that's all you need or 8 passes if you need (assuming the product stays wet). SMAT polishes can also bring more clarity to a finish than DAT products. M205 which is very similar to Swirlx, has amazing work time, and leaves a finish that will make everyone in your neighborhood jealous, especially with black. Once again, work Swirlx at speed 3 or 4.


"Well 2 days later I go back into the garage and decided to check everything out again under the halogens.... AHHHHH!! The swirls were back! And all the car has been doing is sitting there untouched/un-driven! I forgot the #80 had fillers and my conclusion was that maybe the oils evaporated over 2 days? I don't know but I was extremely frustrated at this point."

The oils did not evaporate. You probably viewed the finish from a different angle and saw the light marring that you didn't see from the different angle.

This is a concept that always comes up, fillers. Does M80 have ingredients specifically formulated for filling? I believe Mike Stoops has alreay said that it doesn't. Does M80 have ingredients that could fill? The polishing oils in M80 can fill light scratches but that is not their purpose.

Even waxes that claim not to hide swirls, can hide very light marring by their sheer being a wax. In order for a wax to protect it must remain on top of the surface and if it remains on top of the surface then it is possible that it fills very light marring beneath it.


"So tonight I ordered a new pad kit from LC only this time I ordered 5.5" with a free sample of Menzerna Super Finish PO 106 FA. My dad also had some Meguiars #82 (Swirl Free Polish) hanging around as well. Now I still have a Grey 6.5" LC pad that is NEW. I was thinking of maybe trying the #82 on the Grey pad tomorrow to see if that would remove anything but the Grey pad (to my knowledge) isn't made to remove any defects or do any paint correction. I was just thinking that maybe because my paint is so soft it might just work? And I was wondering if anyone had any input on the #82/Grey Pad combo? Or even maybe use the Green pad with #82?"

M82 Swirl Free Polish is a very light cleaner/polish designed to follow M83 (at least that's what it said in the training video on YouTube). If you are trying to remove very light marring and bring the surface to a very high gloss, then you need to reduce the cut from the previous step in the process. That is why compound/finish polish combos work. The compound cuts heavily and the finishing polish cuts very lightly only removig the hazing from the compound while refining the surface and making it as smooth as possible. By making it smooth, you create high gloss.

The grey pad may have no cut, but M82 has very light cut. Therefore, you are using a combo with very light cut which will yield very light swirl removal and a high gloss finish. I would go ahead and use the grey pad with M80 again as it looks so awesome on dark colors due to its polishing oils.


Alright, I hope that helped. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask.