Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

[dave93761]

As the thread title suggests, I'm looking at ways to cut down the time it takes to de-contaminate a car's paintjob.

At the moment I'll pre-soak the car in NXT wash, then handwash with Hyper Wash. Then pre-soak again with NXT before rinsing & drying.....then I'll start to clay.

However with my most recent customer's car, the contamination was that bad (car was 2008 model), it took me pretty much 3 hours to clay the paint to a stage that I was happy with! I also went over it quickly with a hand-applied pass of GS27 Waterless Paint Renovator (similar to DC Paint Cleaner), because whilst the clay pulled up HEAPS AND HEAPS of stuff, it still wasn't 100% contaminant-free.

I know about the Finish Kare 3 step system which is essentially designed to replace the clay bar step, but I was thinking what are some alternatives in the 'washing' step to removing / softening up the bonded contaminants - therefore speeding up the actual clay process, and also therefore helping to prolong the life of clay bars?

Would a truck wash be appropriate?
Meguiar's Body Solvent?
All Purpose Cleaner??

Should I be looking at alkaline cleaners or acidic cleaners? I'd prefer something where I DIDN'T have to wear protective gear, so I'm assuming this rules out the acidic stuff - wouldn't this soften the paint up too much anyway??

Comments or thoughts?

[Shawn T.]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

Stick with clay. Try the Meguiars Aggressive clay which is considerably more aggressive than the blue clay and can mar the finish. But, it will make claying like the car you just described much easier.

Personally, I would stay from acidic cleaners. That's just me though.

Another thing you could try is the Hi-Tech Magna Sponge. When used with a good amount of pressure I have heard it can be even more aggressive than aggressive clay.

[dave93761]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

Stick with clay. Try the Meguiars Aggressive clay which is considerably more aggressive than the blue clay and can mar the finish. But, it will make claying like the car you just described much easier.

Personally, I would stay from acidic cleaners. That's just me though.

Another thing you could try is the Hi-Tech Magna Sponge. When used with a good amount of pressure I have heard it can be even more aggressive than aggressive clay.

I've always wanted to get a hold of the Megs aggressive clay - only problem here in Australia, is that it's more than $80 for 1 200g bar, whereas I can get regular clay bars (non-Meguiars brand) at $13.50 for 2 100g bars. Even to import the bars from the US would be around the $55-60 mark unfortunately.

I'll probably be getting some Chemical Guys heavy duty bars soon ($38 for 200g bar and a 473ml bottle of lubricant), so will see how much difference it makes...

Yeah I don't like acidic cleaners either - but just interested if there are any products out there for this specific purpose.

Never heard of the Magna Sponge - got any info on it?
The only claybar alternative I've seen/heard of in Australia is the Chemical Guys Clayblock. But I'm looking for 'wash' type products more specifically...

[Murr1525]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

You can do a diluted Body solvent rinse or something, but not sure if it would help a lot.

If this was the only car that bad, then hopefully it is just an isolated case. Was there something specific it had been exposed to?

[dave93761]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

You can do a diluted Body solvent rinse or something, but not sure if it would help a lot.

If this was the only car that bad, then hopefully it is just an isolated case. Was there something specific it had been exposed to?

Nothing specific - it just hadn't been detailed ever before since leaving the dealership. Washed sporadically, but mainly just driven.

But for a late 2008 model car, the contamination was quite bad. I've done older cars that also supposedly haven't had any paint maintenance before, and it wasn't as bad as this one....admittedly I've only ever had access to mild/fine clay bars; I know that using an 'aggressive' one will leave marring afterwards (not a drama since usually some form of paint correction is going to happen anyway)....is an aggressive bar really THAT much more 'heavy-duty' than a regular bar?

Haven't used the Body Solvent before, but it would be something I'd be interested in acquiring for a purpose such as this....what about other TFR's (traffic film removers) such as Autoglym PM3?? http://www.carcareproducts.com.au/pr.../multi_cleaner

[Murr1525]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

If something takes a lot of claying to remove, I have my doubts about a spraying of some product removing it.

Yes, the Agressive Clay is a good bit more agressive, if it would have helped or solved this, who knows.

I am not familiar with all of the possible degreasing, etc products, but in general they wont be as lubricating as a car wash soap. So if you spray it on, and then have to rub it in with a sponge, etc, there will also be a higher chance of swirls. If they even remove what was bonded on.... bit of a toss up.

[TOGWT]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

Differences between Detailer’s clay and Paint Decontamination

CarPro Iron X Paint Decontamination System was developed as a method of removing paint contamination beyond what can be removed by washing or claying alone, if you are familiar with detailer’s clay, you know it is capable of removing above surface contaminants that have bonded to the paint. The CarPro Iron X is designed to remove what lies below the paint surface.

a) Detailer's clay - removes paint surface contaminants i.e. it abrades the top section of an iron particle, leaving what is below the paint surface to remain. Once water and heat (reactivity) is added the corrosion process is started

b) CarPro Iron X - the imbedded (below paint surface) iron particles are released by the exothermic reaction between the acid and moisture, the heat opens the micro-pores of the paint, thus releasing the iron particles, and to neutralize caustic compounds that have developed in the paint's subsurface. Ongoing damage is immediately stopped and future damage is prevented by removing the ferrous particles.

CarPro Iron X is used by both professional and enthusiast for pre-cleaning prior to a detailing on both brand new and used vehicles. It is proven to provide a clean, glassy smooth vehicle paint surface that is protected from the harmful effects of paint corrosion
As can be seen decontamination is not a replacement for detailer’s clay as they both perform different functions, so for a pristine surface use both

Corrosion from Brake Dust

Brake dust or rail dust is very small, almost microscopic particles of steel, iron or their alloys. These particles carry a positive charge (due to friction) while the vehicles they land on are carrying a negative charge. The vehicle surface becomes a magnet, attracting and bonding the ferrous metal particles to the vehicle’s paint surfaces.

The corrosive chemical compounds generated then proceed to etch (corrode) the clear coat, the metallic particles (brake dust) penetrate and act as a conduit spreading the corrosives through the paint film system (and the sheet metal), which results in erosion of the paint surface, that shows on the surface as tiny rust spots (rust blooms) Although present on all paint surfaces, sintered brake / rail dust is most noticeable on light coloured paint surfaces, especially white.

These contaminants are invisible to the naked eye, once they start to oxidise, and turn orange; this is when the problem will be brought to your attention, even on brand new vehicles.

CarPro Iron X – use on car paint, wheels and glass (safe for all wheel finishes including painted aluminium and alloys) to remove iron filings and ferrous-based contaminants. Automotive paint is porous, by using an acid salt solution on the paint surface the micro-fissures (‘pores’) are expanded by an exothermic reaction. This releases ferrous particles and caustic compounds that have developed in the paint's subsurface; the reaction agitates and loosens the particles allowing them to be rinsed away.

This is a one-step, highly effective vehicle paint decontamination, beyond what can be removed by washing or claying, with the cleaning power of an acid with a pH of 7.0, by using a neutralised acid salt

Neutralization is the reaction between an acid and a base (alkaline) producing a salt and neutralized base; common examples include acetic acid and sulphuric acid, it contains neutralised acid salt that effectively dissolve the sintered brake dust particles by forming a water soluble complex that can be rinsed away. Do not allow solution to dry on paint surface. The smell is similar to ammonium thioglycolate (its main chemical component) also used in the formulation of permanent wave lotion.

The neutralization reaction of an acid with a base will always produce water and a salt. The carbonic acid formed (H2CO3) undergoes rapid decomposition to water and gaseous carbon dioxide, and so the solution bubbles as CO2 gas is released. HCl + NaHCO3 > H2CO3 + NaCl (Salt)

It is really interesting to see the amount of iron particles residue that will be dissolved by Iron X, despite having clayed the car before hand. This product definitely offers advancement in paintwork decontamination

[akimel]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

I don't know how effective it would be in removing the bonded contaminants with which you are struggling, but the product that immediately came to mind is Chemical Guys' Citrus Wash & Clear, used at paint prep strength (2 oz. per gallon).

[chet31]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

The issue I have with clay sometimes is not the time (since I'm not a pro) but the expense. I have a large minivan to clay, never been clayed before, and I'm worried I could go through two or three (or more?) bars and they're not cheap. Maybe a Magna sponge is the ticket for this situation.

[Spidey]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

The issue I have with clay sometimes is not the time (since I'm not a pro) but the expense. I have a large minivan to clay, never been clayed before, and I'm worried I could go through two or three (or more?) bars and they're not cheap. Maybe a Magna sponge is the ticket for this situation.

The clay kits come with 2 bars... I really doubt you will go through more than that..... If you clay annually and wash weekly, you shouldn't need to go through more than one bar even for a whole car.. i used about 1/3-1/2 of a bar on my civic when i clayed it for the first time in 3 years (since i bought the car). and the first 3 years i owned the car, i washed it maybe monthly... I don't know why i neglected it so much.. maybe because I parked outside and found it a hopeless effort to maintain a clean black car as a daily driver.

now that i have a parkade, i wash weekly, wax monthly, clay annually..

I think the only areas that will pickup debris even if you wash regularly are the fenders bc of brake dust. everywhere else should be generally ok.

[dave93761]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

Differences between Detailer’s clay and Paint Decontamination

CarPro Iron X Paint Decontamination System was developed as a method of removing paint contamination beyond what can be removed by washing or claying alone, if you are familiar with detailer’s clay, you know it is capable of removing above surface contaminants that have bonded to the paint. The CarPro Iron X is designed to remove what lies below the paint surface.

a) Detailer's clay - removes paint surface contaminants i.e. it abrades the top section of an iron particle, leaving what is below the paint surface to remain. Once water and heat (reactivity) is added the corrosion process is started

b) CarPro Iron X - the imbedded (below paint surface) iron particles are released by the exothermic reaction between the acid and moisture, the heat opens the micro-pores of the paint, thus releasing the iron particles, and to neutralize caustic compounds that have developed in the paint's subsurface. Ongoing damage is immediately stopped and future damage is prevented by removing the ferrous particles.

CarPro Iron X is used by both professional and enthusiast for pre-cleaning prior to a detailing on both brand new and used vehicles. It is proven to provide a clean, glassy smooth vehicle paint surface that is protected from the harmful effects of paint corrosion
As can be seen decontamination is not a replacement for detailer’s clay as they both perform different functions, so for a pristine surface use both

Corrosion from Brake Dust

Brake dust or rail dust is very small, almost microscopic particles of steel, iron or their alloys. These particles carry a positive charge (due to friction) while the vehicles they land on are carrying a negative charge. The vehicle surface becomes a magnet, attracting and bonding the ferrous metal particles to the vehicle’s paint surfaces.

The corrosive chemical compounds generated then proceed to etch (corrode) the clear coat, the metallic particles (brake dust) penetrate and act as a conduit spreading the corrosives through the paint film system (and the sheet metal), which results in erosion of the paint surface, that shows on the surface as tiny rust spots (rust blooms) Although present on all paint surfaces, sintered brake / rail dust is most noticeable on light coloured paint surfaces, especially white.

These contaminants are invisible to the naked eye, once they start to oxidise, and turn orange; this is when the problem will be brought to your attention, even on brand new vehicles.

CarPro Iron X – use on car paint, wheels and glass (safe for all wheel finishes including painted aluminium and alloys) to remove iron filings and ferrous-based contaminants. Automotive paint is porous, by using an acid salt solution on the paint surface the micro-fissures (‘pores’) are expanded by an exothermic reaction. This releases ferrous particles and caustic compounds that have developed in the paint's subsurface; the reaction agitates and loosens the particles allowing them to be rinsed away.

This is a one-step, highly effective vehicle paint decontamination, beyond what can be removed by washing or claying, with the cleaning power of an acid with a pH of 7.0, by using a neutralised acid salt

Neutralization is the reaction between an acid and a base (alkaline) producing a salt and neutralized base; common examples include acetic acid and sulphuric acid, it contains neutralised acid salt that effectively dissolve the sintered brake dust particles by forming a water soluble complex that can be rinsed away. Do not allow solution to dry on paint surface. The smell is similar to ammonium thioglycolate (its main chemical component) also used in the formulation of permanent wave lotion.

The neutralization reaction of an acid with a base will always produce water and a salt. The carbonic acid formed (H2CO3) undergoes rapid decomposition to water and gaseous carbon dioxide, and so the solution bubbles as CO2 gas is released. HCl + NaHCO3 > H2CO3 + NaCl (Salt)

It is really interesting to see the amount of iron particles residue that will be dissolved by Iron X, despite having clayed the car before hand. This product definitely offers advancement in paintwork decontamination

This stuff sounds the goods! Just watched some vids on Youtube and it looks like it's worth it's weight in gold!

pH neutral is great as well - does anybody know whether the Finish Kare step 2 SIRR is also pH neutral?? I can get the Finish Kare stuff pretty cheap here in Aus, but I can't seem to find anywhere to get the Iron Cut stuff, except 1 place in the UK which isn't worth it due to poor exchange rate!!

[dave93761]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

After doing some more research, can anybody shed any light on the difference (if any) between the Carpro IronX, and the 'Iron Cut' - are they the same product just re-named? Or are there improvements in the IronX over the Iron Cut...

[TOGWT]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...



CarProIronX is a name change from AQuartz as is was already registered

AQuartz Official International Vendors
• Australia - http://www.zas.com.au/

[dave93761]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

IronX vs Finish Kare SIRR Iron & Rust Remover?? What should I use and why?

[CAShine]

Re: Product(s) to de-contaminate paint before claying...

what are some alternatives in the 'washing' step to removing / softening up the bonded contaminants - therefore speeding up the actual clay process, and also therefore helping to prolong the life of clay bars?
Comments or thoughts?

What I do to try to rid the paint of as much dirt and grim as possible is a few things. I use body solvent on the bumpers, side skirts, and doors. Spray on, let set for a little while, wipe off with terry. Then I will spray APC all around including areas I had used body solvent. I spray down the whole car from top to bottom with power washer to rinse chemicals. Then I take a small brush and APC and scrub emblems and crevices. Spray down again with power washer. Next I will wash each panel and clay at the same time. I find this saves time and there is good lubricity with the wash soap.

You can't prolong the life of a clay bar, once you use it, it is done. But you can get as much grime off the paint so you don't have to use as much clay bar.