Names for the car care cycle steps

[Mary S]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

But we most definitely do call it cleaning and refer to the products as paint cleaners.

Michael, your use of the word "cleaning" to refer to the use of step 2 products appears in a couple of isolated places, for instance, the word "cleaner wax" in your DC line.

As I have pointed out above, your use of that word has been far eclipsed by your use of the word "polish" when talking about paint correction. If you would go through all of the paint correction products one by one and look at the labels, you would not find the word "cleaner" on the vast majority of them. And most likely, you would find the word "polish" or a derivative of that word. Case in point, the Dual Action Polisher, not the Dual Action Cleaner. I have already enumerated these in my posts above, and there are many more examples.

And you use the word Cleaner in a huge array of your other detailing products, particular interior detailing, such as APC, leather cleaner, glass cleaner.

Please read this thread carefully, because I think the point I am making is important. I don't want to go through all of the examples again.

Meguiar's calls the 2nd step in the paint cycle "cleaning" and probably always will. I am not trying to change that.

But the detailing community that uses Meguiar's products does not need to suffer for the lack of a meaningful name for a process which is central to what we do for customers, i.e., correct their paint. We will not talk about cleaning to our customers. We talked about that the other day. You said no matter what we call it, we have to define it. I don't mind that, but I am not going to start out with the handicap of calling it "cleaning," a word that already means something else to the customer, and try to redefine it as a process that more resembles what we know as polishing and what Meguiars calls polishing in almost every case. It is the use of mild abrasives to level the paint to eliminate fine scratches.

What I don't understand is why you would even say that you use the word cleaning when you really don't, except in a few isolated places.

[Mary S]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

But we most definitely do call it cleaning and refer to the products as paint cleaners.

Michael, maybe I misunderstood you. When you say you "call" it cleaning, maybe you meant this is what Meguiars employees use to communicate to eachother when you are talking about your products.

I am not referring to that, I am referring it to what you put on the label of the products. In that sense, you rarely "call" it cleaning.

[Mary S]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

OK, I gotcha. See, this is the problem when there is no industry standard for these terms - it becomes very confusing for the average Joe who cannot pick out the nuances between different terms and even the same term used in different ways. You and I understand the point being made, but what about the guy who's going into Wal-Mart looking for some products to make his car look better? Will he understand? I'm guessing probably not. When like terms are used interchangeably for different products and applications, it tends to create general confusion. But obviously, you can't nitpick about the nitty gritty.

The guy going to Wal-Mart would definitely be confused if he saw DC Cleaner Wax. He might think if he uses this he can skip the washing step.

The label details of DC Cleaner even implies that he can: "Meguiar's Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner safely removes road grime, surface contamination, light oxidation, swirls and light scratches to restore damaged and dull finishes."

There are some of the older Meguiars Mirror Glaze products, and definitely some rubbing compounds already out there, that don't bring up a shine but have to be followed by a polishing compound to do that.

So for everybody's sake, step 2 could be called (repair/correct/cut)/polish to take into account the traditional rubbing compound that acts as an abrasive to remove scratches or sanding marks. I am assuming, though, for the average consumer, this isn't something he routinely does.

So:
1. Wash/Clay
2. (Repair/correct/cut)/Polish
3. Glaze
4. Protect
5. Maintain

The dictionary definition for the verb "polish" as it relates to surfaces is to "make shine."

By dictionary definitions, as both a glaze and a wax/sealant will also add to shine, and while even washing the car will cause it to shine, steps 1 through 4 all "polish" the paint to some degree by dictionary definition, well I guess so does step 5. The step that truly brings out the car paint's shine, though, is step 2.

I think even on this forum there has been confusion about Gold Class and NXT sealants because the label says they contain "polishes."

So does that mean polish as in "pure polishes" or polishes as in abrasives, such as cleaner waxes?

I think the way I have seen it discussed here is that people think these products have light abrasives in them, and applying a second coat will remove the coat.

Again, like you said, too many uses for the word "clean" to mean different things, too many uses for the word "polish" to mean different things.

Someone could probably make a ton of money reselling the Meguiars products under less confusing labels.

[roushstage2]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

I think you are just going way too far into it. Removing contaminants, swirls, scratches and so on will make the car shine. Ever seen a black car so contaminated with the above that they look gray, or even close to white under certain lighting conditions? If you took that car, and used say M105, a paint cleaner, the paint will look much clearer and shinier. Now, that step is simply going to be labeled with what you think you are actually doing to the paint to make it that way. Can it be called cleaning the paint? Sure, you are cleansing it of defects and contaminants. Can it be called polishing the paint? Sure, you are polishing the defects out (though, you have to "clean" it to get contaminants off).

As for the second coat of wax removing the first. It's not that there are abrasives in them. A cleaner/polish, whichever you'd like, can be a chemical one. That's what something like NXT has. It uses it to cleanse the paint to ensure the best bonding. Do I think two coats would be counterproductive? No. To some people, it is. It's their way of looking at it.

It's all semantics. If every word was used the same in some correct, exact way everytime by everyone, you wouldn't have a synonym for any word.

[Tuck91]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

[Mary S]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

Maybe this will help. From http://www.allstarcollision.com/glossary.htm

Rubbing compound:A specially formulated emulsion of materials designed to remove paint surface imperfections such as scratches,oxidation,stains,and acid rain etching.

Polish: A specially formulated blend of components designed to remove minor paint surface imperfections, such as fine scratches, light oxidation, water spots, and swirl marks left by the use of rubbing compounds.

Okay let's try to simplify this:

What / How / Why
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Car shampoo / Wash / To clean paint of loose contaminants
2. Detailing Clay / Clay / Remove bonded above-surface contaminants
3. Rubbing Compound / Compound / Remove heavy below-surface imperfections
4. Polishing Compound / Polish / Remove light below-surface imperfections
5. Pure polish / Glaze / Bring out depth of shine on dark cars
6. Wax or sealant / Protect / Protect the clear coat from the elements
7. Quick Detailer or UQD / Maintain / Keep paint clean between washings

Okay, for the steps we are listing not the what but the how, i.e., the verbs

1. Wash
2. Clay
3. Compound
4. Polish
5. Glaze
6. Protect
7. Maintain

Step 5 is optional.

To line this up with Meguiar's 5-step cycle:

1. Wash
2. Clay/Compound/Polish
3. Glaze
4. Protect
5. Maintain.

I am up for a new word for step 5 if you don't like glaze, but "polish" is taken.

[Mary S]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

What / How / Why
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Car shampoo / Wash / To clean paint of loose contaminants
2. Detailing Clay / Clay / Remove bonded above-surface contaminants
3. Rubbing Compound / Compound / Remove heavy below-surface imperfections
4. Polishing Compound / Polish / Remove light below-surface imperfections
5. Pure polish / Glaze / Bring out depth of shine on dark cars
6. Wax or sealant / Protect / Protect the clear coat from the elements
7. Quick Detailer or UQD / Maintain / Keep paint clean between washings

In these steps, in the case of Meguiar's, the following would be the rubbing compounds that use the SMAT technology:

95, 105, Ultimate Compound, ScratchX

The following would be the polishing compounds that use the SMAT technology: SwirlX, 205

There are others that use diminishing abrasive technology, but especially in the case of UC, ScratchX, and SwirlX, these are the products most likely used by customers on their own cars with today's products.

So to make this more Meguiar's specific:

What / How / Why
---------------------------------------------------------------
1. Car shampoo / Wash / To clean paint of loose contaminants
2. Detailing Clay / Clay / Remove bonded above-surface contaminants
3. 95, 105, UC, ScratchX / Compound / Remove heavy below-surface imperfections
4. 205, SwirlX / Polish / Remove swirls and light below-surface imperfections
5. Pure polish / Glaze / Bring out depth of shine on dark cars
6. Wax or sealant / Protect / Protect the clear coat from the elements
7. Quick Detailer or UQD / Maintain / Keep paint clean between washings

So the use of the word "cleaning" is confined to describing steps that clean, i.e., the "Wash" and "Maintain" steps.

We refer to the use of the UC and 105 as "compounding"

We refer to the use of SwirlX and 205 as "polishing"

We refer to the use of DC Polish, 07, and 05 as "glazing"

I think this pretty much covers everything. I think this will help design service menus for packages based on what they do and don't include. For example if you require "Compounding" and "Polishing" it will cost more than if you only require "Polishing." You can make estimates based on how many passes you think you will need of each.

[Mary S]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

I think you are just going way too far into it. Removing contaminants, swirls, scratches and so on will make the car shine. Ever seen a black car so contaminated with the above that they look gray, or even close to white under certain lighting conditions? If you took that car, and used say M105, a paint cleaner, the paint will look much clearer and shinier. Now, that step is simply going to be labeled with what you think you are actually doing to the paint to make it that way. Can it be called cleaning the paint? Sure, you are cleansing it of defects and contaminants. Can it be called polishing the paint? Sure, you are polishing the defects out (though, you have to "clean" it to get contaminants off).

As for the second coat of wax removing the first. It's not that there are abrasives in them. A cleaner/polish, whichever you'd like, can be a chemical one. That's what something like NXT has. It uses it to cleanse the paint to ensure the best bonding. Do I think two coats would be counterproductive? No. To some people, it is. It's their way of looking at it.

It's all semantics. If every word was used the same in some correct, exact way everytime by everyone, you wouldn't have a synonym for any word.

I sure hear what you are saying, and you get a community like MOL who is used to hearing these words used, and we probably won't get confused whether you call it cleaning or polishing or buffing or compounding.

And we are all pretty much on the same page about what detailing is, and what someone who calls himself a detailer does.

But I might have a problem if I call someone who does detailing in my region, and part of the challenge is I am looking for someone who does paint correction, and not everyone who calls himself a detailer does. So if I get too used to referring to the process as cleaning the paint on this forum, I had better use different terminology when interviewing an outside detailer, because he will say of course he cleans the paint and waxes it and really makes it shine.

And if I am a professional detailer and people are calling me and wants to know if I do paint correction, well I had better speak his language well enough to answer him without just talking about cleaning the paint.

So to really advance as a collective profession we ultimately need to have a common language so we are not always starting from square 1 when we try to talk to eachother or our customers, even something as fundamental as defining what a "detailer" is or does. And many times it is through professional organizations that that gets accomplished. We just aren't there yet.

[Scoobie]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

according to Meguiar's definitions, they are not.

http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/detail/MEG+POLISH+32

Permanently removes swirls and light defects from all paints.
Produces deep reflections and high gloss
Smooth-glide buffing feel and fast wipe-off
Environmentally responsible, Safe, VOC compliant formula

Megs 205 is an abrasive (a mild abrasive, but an abrasive nonetheless) yet it says "polish" on the bottle.



Contradictions.




Main Entry: pol·ish
Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lish\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English polisshen, from Anglo-French poliss-, stem of polir, from Latin polire
Date: 14th century
transitive verb

1 : to make smooth and glossy usually by friction : burnish
2 : to smooth, soften, or refine in manners or condition
3 : to bring to a highly developed, finished, or refined state : perfect
intransitive verb
: to become smooth or glossy by or as if by friction

— pol·ish·er noun

[Scoobie]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps


You can call a product whatever you want, but the actual, physical act of leveling, refining, or making a surface smooth, according to Websters dictionary, is "polishing".

[Scoobie]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps


Shoe polish is not an abrassive, yet it is called a "polish". That is because the "shoe polish" makes shoes appear shiny. Ultimately, shoe polish does NOT abrade a surface, it does not level, or burnish. If you want to get technical, is NOT a polish, according to websters dictionary.



It's just a name.

[Scoobie]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps


Whats in a name

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

I sure hear what you are saying, and you get a community like MOL who is used to hearing these words used, and we probably won't get confused whether you call it cleaning or polishing or buffing or compounding.

And we are all pretty much on the same page about what detailing is, and what someone who calls himself a detailer does.

But I might have a problem if I call someone who does detailing in my region, and part of the challenge is I am looking for someone who does paint correction, and not everyone who calls himself a detailer does. So if I get too used to referring to the process as cleaning the paint on this forum, I had better use different terminology when interviewing an outside detailer, because he will say of course he cleans the paint and waxes it and really makes it shine.

And if I am a professional detailer and people are calling me and wants to know if I do paint correction, well I had better speak his language well enough to answer him without just talking about cleaning the paint.

So to really advance as a collective profession we ultimately need to have a common language so we are not always starting from square 1 when we try to talk to eachother or our customers, even something as fundamental as defining what a "detailer" is or does. And many times it is through professional organizations that that gets accomplished. We just aren't there yet.

Mary,

While I appreciate your attempt at "doing the community a service," I do not agree the tone by which you are delivering it. Please show a little more respect to Mr. Stoops and other Meguiar's representatives - as well as your fellow forum users.

Michael Stoops is a highly trained professional that works for Meguiar's.

Michael Stoops knows what a polish is, and what cleaning is.

Meguiar's as a company knows fully well what they are attempting to convey when they say what they do. The labels say exactly what they are wanting to convey.

Meguiar's is the largest detailing supply producer in the world, and has been in business longer than any major player - they have developed their interpretation of certain words.

Whether or not other companies, Dictionaries or detailers agree with, or use those terms really is unavoidable and irrelevant. Meguiar's is going for consistency within their brand - that is what matters to them and the vast majority of their customers.

Meguiar's can't be everything to everyone - and as such they don't have or need to change their internal language in order to try and comply with other companies or individuals.

[CieraSL]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

[Mary S]

Re: Names for the car care cycle steps

Mary,

While I appreciate your attempt at "doing the community a service," I do not agree the tone by which you are delivering it. Please show a little more respect to Mr. Stoops and other Meguiar's representatives - as well as your fellow forum users.

Mark, I have made a sincere effort at trying to solve a problem that exists, a very real problem that affects the very livelihood of people who are making their living detailing, in that there is no standardized word for the part of detailing that refers to the correction of paint, which is the most fundamental part of the services we offer. This is a very real problem.

And I know Michael Stoops is an invaluable asset to both Meguiars and this forum, and I got a bit frustrated when he made a post that contradicted what I had said in my earlier posts, almost as if he hadn't read them, so I apologize for the tone of my reply.

The truth is, it is not only for myself or my fellow detailers that any of this matters. It hurts Meguiar's as well. You say that Meguiar's is one of the biggest providers of detailing products, and yet I had never heard of them, my 85-year-old father had never heard of them. I know I made the remark that somebody could make a lot of money if they sold the Meguiar's products under less confusing labels. That is kind of a sideways way of saying, "you know, Meguiar's, if you sold your products under less confusing labels, you would sell a lot more of your products."

But I can't do anything about what Meguiar's calls their products or their processes, and I know that. I have to pick my battles, try to change what is in my power to change, accept what is not in my power to change.

There is a reason I don't find very many consumer Meguiar's products on my shelf at Walmart. The employees at Walmart didn't spend 3 months on the MOL forums learning about the Meguiar's products and processes. They need to know what the products do so they can put them with other products that do the same thing. They need to be able to answer questions if somebody asks what the difference is between a "cleaner wax" and a "wash and wax." And, of course, they have to be able to sell what they put on their shelves. And if people aren't seeing SwirlX on the shelf and thinking "oh boy, finally something to remove swirls," because 99.9% of people have never heard the term "swirls" in that context, well the product won't move, so Walmart won't restock it.

So I have been advocating for the detailing profession, the members of this community, and Meguiar's products and the company, all at the same time. I like the Meguiar's products, I use them, I believe in them. I have bought only Meguiar's products since I have been here. The fact they could be more than they are, well I wouldn't get a commission if they directed an effort at standardizing their product names and improved their sales.

So I apologize if I have let my frustration show at times. I can understand when a company started in 1901 making furniture products, before cars even existed, and cleaner/polish and pure polish were terms that made sense at the time, and they have chosen to be consistent when selling products for a surface that has different properties, where the same thing acting on car paint acts a different way than it does on harder varnishes, well I can see why they might have gotten to where they are. And going forward from that while continuing to sell the products that people know under a certain label, I can understand the challenge in that, and the decisions they made I know they made for a reason. If they had started their business 10 years ago, the names would have been a lot different.

So again, I apologize for letting my frustration get the best of me at times to cause me to show any disrespect to Meguiar's or Michael Stoops or any other Meguiar's employees that contribute to this forum. Michael Stoops and the other contributing Meguiar's employees are the heart of this forum and its biggest assets, and I didn't mean to offend anyone.