Test on detergent and degradation of wax

[Mary S]

I had the hardest time figuring out how to test how a detergent would degrade car wax. Although I could take Johnson's paste wax and spread it on a sheet of paper and the water would bead on it, I could not replicate that with either Gold Class or NXT 2.0. I put coats and coats of them on a piece of paper, but they did not cause water to bead on the paper. And I know Gold Class has wax in it, but NXT 2.0 is a synthetic sealant, so they may behave differently.

For what it is worth, I tried this on a sheet of waxed paper.

A cup of water with 1/2 tsp of Dawn detergent, a cup of water with 1/2 tsp of Gold Class Car Wash soap.

And I put a piece of waxed paper in both, no agitation or anything, just let it sit, and timed it for 30 minutes. Then I blotted them and let them thoroughly dry. Then I tested if water would bead. It beaded on both.

I repeated for another 30 minutes. The water beaded on both.

I repeated for another 30 minutes. The water beaded on the Gold Class piece. On the Dawn piece it dispersed and you could feel moisture on the back of the paper, so it had at least partially lost its hydrophobic protection.

I soaked them both for another 30 minutes, this being a total of 2 hours. This time the water was similarly dispersing on both of them, and you could feel the moisture on the back of the paper, so they had both had at least partially lost hydrophobic protection.

I guess the wax or sealant on a car is much thinner than the wax on a sheet of waxed paper.

And I did not do anything to test what a trip through the touchless would do to a sheet of waxed paper, but judging from this test, probably not much.

The comparison between the sheet of waxed paper and a layer of ESP on the car, probably this varies greatly depending on what ESP you use.

[RedSoxRacer]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

The wax on wax paper is a lot different than the wax you put on your car. It is paraffin and more like candle wax, and is almost completely waterproof.

[Mary S]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

Here is some of the chemistry as I understand it. We all know the expression "oil and water don't mix." Surfactants such as detergents can change that. They consist of molecules that have a hydrophilic head and a hydrophobic tail. (let's say for example the hydrophilic head is a hydroxy group on the end of an organic polymer, and hence it is alkaline). The hydrophobic tail can react with a petroleum molecule that would not ordinarily dissolve in water, and you have a whole sphere of these guys with their hydrophobic tails in the center and the hydrophilic tails on the outside. So as such, the whole sphere, called a micelle, encapsulates a particle of oil or other hydrophobic substance while the hydrophilic outer sphere interacts favorably with with the water, and suddenly water can dissolve an oil product such as parrafin, which is a saturated hydrocarbon.

So that is how a detergent can attack road film, and how it can at the same time attack your wax finish. Hopefully, the parrafin is more inert than the road film, since it is saturated, so a surfactant will attack the road film faster than the wax, but ultimately it will attack both.

[RedSoxRacer]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

Paraffin is not water soluble. And dish soap or carwash soap will not change that. Nor will gasoline or many other chemicals. Only Benzene and a couple other chemicles are effective at disolving paraffin.

[Mary S]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

All waxes and oils are not water soluble. But a surface of wax can be stripped by detergent in water. I just tried that today. This is how Dawn works, allowing grease, which is not water soluble, to be washed away by a solution of water and Dawn.

But as you said, water alone did not strip the wax from the wax paper.

[RedSoxRacer]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

Ok. I won't argue with your scientific experiment. Especially when people have hours between replies to look up info and basically copy / paste what they find on Wikipedia about "chemistry" and claim it as their own info.
Well done. Proceed with the experiments.

[Mary S]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

people have hours between replies to look up info and basically copy / paste what they find on Wikipedia about "chemistry" and claim it as their own info

If you are referring to me, let's see:
2 semesters of general chemistry plus lab
2 semesters of organic chemistry plus lab
1 semester of quantitative chemistry lab only
2 semesters of physical chemistry plus lab
1 semester of biochemistry

And if you can find even so much as a sentence of what I wrote having been copy/pasted from anywhere, it would be an amazing cooincidence. But yes, I did research this particular subject to help people understand the chemistry and for my own benefit.

But I agree, I used the phrase water "dissolving" paraffin, of which I misspoke. Parrafin is not soluble in water. So thank you for the correction.

[TOGWT]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

[But yes, I did research this particular subject to help people understand the chemistry and for my own benefit.]

Don’t be discouraged grasshopper, you’ll find that sharing chemical information on detailing forums will often elicit a negative response (for some obscure reason it seems to threaten their ego)

Thanks for sharing the info

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

For what it is worth, I tried this on a sheet of waxed paper.

Potentially this could have a huge impact on the outcome. Applying a wax or sealant to waxed paper is very different from applying it to paint, which is what our waxes are designed to bond to and the only way we test them. We aren't saying that this alone invalidates the test, although it could because the two surfaces are just so different from each other.

[Mary S]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

Potentially this could have a huge impact on the outcome. Applying a wax or sealant to waxed paper is very different from applying it to paint, which is what our waxes are designed to bond to and the only way we test them. We aren't saying that this alone invalidates the test, although it could because the two surfaces are just so different from each other.

Michael, I didn't apply any products to the waxed paper. Ultimately, what I want to do is quantify what a run through a touchless car wash will do to various ESPs, and I know the chemistry of the ESPs that Meguiars and other companies sell all differ from eachother and differ from the paraffin on the sheet of waxed paper.

The problem is that I don't have a way of quantifying what the touchless wash will do to ESPs on paint, and I also don't want to spend $5 a pop for multiple runs through the wash, if it takes multiple runs to strip an ESP from the paint.

This test is a bit qualitative, in that we know Dawn is one of the harshest of detergents to be applied to a car, harsher than the detergents applied during a touchless wash, and it took between 1 and 1-1/2 hours soaking in the Dawn solution to strip the wax from the wax paper to the extent the wax protection was compromised. Had I used friction on the surface, I am sure it would have taken less time, because the friction would have helped dislodge the wax particles.

The thing that suggests to me is that detergents left to dwell on the car paint's surface in a touchless wash for maybe 2 or 3 minutes MAY not completely strip an ESP from the car in one pass, but it doesn't exclude the possibility that it will. I would predict that if you used several coats of a really hard, close to pure carnauba wax product, it would take multiple times through the wash to completely strip it.

But be that as it may, the detergent has the capability of stripping wax. It is just a question of how long the detergent has to dwell on the car to do it.

I will be testing real products on a real car in a real car wash, but I am going to wait until my husband's car needs to be washed first.

[Mary S]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

Sorry I got my TLA's (three-letter-acronyms) messed up. That should be LSP for last stage product, not ESP for end-stage product. So various sealants, waxes, and wax formulations is what I mean by that.

[Bunky]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

I would do the test on a real painted surface such as gas grill.

In fact, I may do a test to see how Dawn changes the water adhesion properties on the grill after I wax it. Given that we know some waxes are more durable than others, the test still has limits of absoluteness. I assume Dawn will degrade and not remove. I assume it also depends on how hard you rub since when washing dishing you may use different wash media (terry cloth) and more pressure.

What I usually do not see is how much Dawn people use.... 1 ounce per gallon?

[Mary S]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

I would do the test on a real painted surface such as gas grill.

In fact, I may do a test to see how Dawn changes the water adhesion properties on the grill after I wax it. Given that we know some waxes are more durable than others, the test still has limits of absoluteness. I assume Dawn will degrade and not remove. I assume it also depends on how hard you rub since when washing dishing you may use different wash media (terry cloth) and more pressure.

What I usually do not see is how much Dawn people use.... 1 ounce per gallon?

That sounds like a good test. I think it will either degrade (partially remove) or remove, depending on what kind of wax and how many layers you have, how much friction you use, etc.

I used a 1 ounce/gallon ratio in my tests, since that is what we use for other shampoos. What people really use when they wash their cars with it, or what concentration goes on your car in the touchless wash, it may differ.

And I don't know to what extent the concentration of the detergent will speed the wax degradation process. There is some limitation in that the detergent can't reach the particles at the bottom of your layer of protection until it exposes them by removing the particles at the top.

[Mary S]

Re: Test on detergent and degradation of wax

Well, we have had a lot of rain, so as soon as it stops I will try Gold Class liquid wax (original), NXT 2.0, and #21, the only car waxes I have, maybe 2 coats each, in sections on the Volvo's hood and run it through the laser touchless car wash and see what happens.

Well now that I think about it, I also have some touch up paint and clear coat that I got at paintscratch.com for my Explorer. I could do some tests with that.