Another pass with M205

[hondastrtracr]

This past weekend I used a 105/205/21 combo with my new g110 on my Honda Civic. It came out great but I know the paint on these cars are very soft, so much so that I have even experienced scratching by simply touching the paint with my finger. Is there anyway to avoid this, another layer of sealant maybe? If not how often could one use the 105/205 combo on their car without causing major problems. If nothing else could another pass with 205 occasionally during the summer months cause any problems? I plan on attending a lot of shows and events so I wanna keep her lookin her best, especially under that bright sun!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Another pass with M205

If the paint on your Honda is really that soft (and we have seen some crazy soft paint on some Hondas recently) then M105 is probably overkill, especially just for swirl removal.

Last summer we had someone come to a Thursday Night Open Garage because he had been really struggling with his black Mazda Miata - another car known for having very soft paint. The car was pretty badly swirled and he had tried M105/W8207/G110 to get them out, but he wasn't really happy with the result. He thought maybe he needed more product, but that didn't really help. So he tried running the tool at a higher speed. That didn't do it either. Then he tried a cutting pad, thinking he'd beat those defects into submission. But even that didn't get him the results he was after.

We then suggested something he thought was kind of crazy. Go less aggressive, not more. We had him use M205 on a W9207 finishing pad, moderate speed, moderate pressure. The finish was darn near flawless in time, and he was just shocked! The softer paints need a softer touch to reach a brilliant, high gloss finish. A more aggressive approach just overpowers the paint.

The very soft Honda paint mentioned previously was specific to two different Honda Fits. Both cars were pretty well swirled, but we found something as mild and easy as M66 or D151, both on a finishing pad at speed 5 on the D/A not only got rid of the swirls, but left a ton of clarity to the finish. Both of these cars could be easily marred with a microfiber towel if you weren't careful.

So when prepping your car for shows this summer, take a light approach to the paint. You'll be happier in the long run; you'll remove less paint, you'll have less marring, and you'll get the job done faster and easier.

[hondastrtracr]

Re: Another pass with M205

I will have to give 205 on a finishing pad a try before any upcoming events. I used very light pressure with the 105 and polishing pad and slightly more with the 205 (knowing that the 105 had more cut). As soon as I get the chance to try it I will report back with results. Another question is with 205 being fairly mild how often could it be used without causing damage? I know the 105 is probably a one time use product for most vehicles.

[hondastrtracr]

Re: Another pass with M205

For future reference would you also say the 105 should not have been used even thought the results were good? Would future use of this on the same vehicle be a bad idea for the clearcoat's sake?

[APR Tuned]

Re: Another pass with M205

If the paint on your Honda is really that soft (and we have seen some crazy soft paint on some Hondas recently) then M105 is probably overkill, especially just for swirl removal.

Last summer we had someone come to a Thursday Night Open Garage because he had been really struggling with his black Mazda Miata - another car known for having very soft paint. The car was pretty badly swirled and he had tried M105/W8207/G110 to get them out, but he wasn't really happy with the result. He thought maybe he needed more product, but that didn't really help. So he tried running the tool at a higher speed. That didn't do it either. Then he tried a cutting pad, thinking he'd beat those defects into submission. But even that didn't get him the results he was after.

We then suggested something he thought was kind of crazy. Go less aggressive, not more. We had him use M205 on a W9207 finishing pad, moderate speed, moderate pressure. The finish was darn near flawless in time, and he was just shocked! The softer paints need a softer touch to reach a brilliant, high gloss finish. A more aggressive approach just overpowers the paint.

The very soft Honda paint mentioned previously was specific to two different Honda Fits. Both cars were pretty well swirled, but we found something as mild and easy as M66 or D151, both on a finishing pad at speed 5 on the D/A not only got rid of the swirls, but left a ton of clarity to the finish. Both of these cars could be easily marred with a microfiber towel if you weren't careful.

So when prepping your car for shows this summer, take a light approach to the paint. You'll be happier in the long run; you'll remove less paint, you'll have less marring, and you'll get the job done faster and easier.

Mike, this is very interesting. I'm going to give the DA my first try this weekend on my 2009 Honda Civic and was planning on 205 with an 8207 pad. The swirls really are not that bad at all though. Should I go at it with the finishing pad instead?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Another pass with M205

The use of M105 wasn't necessarily a "bad" idea, but it may have been much more aggressive than what was required. We have no doubts that you got great results using M105, but for just light swirls on soft paint you most likely didn't need it.

When talking about how much paint is being removed for simple swirl correction and whether one product was more aggressive than what might have been needed for the job, remember that we aren't talking about removing a lot of paint, and M105 could likely be used numerous times over many, many years without worry of unduly degrading the clear coat. Still, why use something that aggressive if you don't need to? On soft paints you often get results every bit as quickly with a less aggressive product, and often there is no need to follow with a finer product in order to refine the surface even further. If you could accomplish the same task with just M205, then what is there to gain from using M105 and then following with M205? You've spent more money on product, spent more time doing the job, and have really nothing better to show for it.

You can liken the process to hammering nails. If you're doing furniture upholstery you would select something like a 5oz tack hammer to finish off the edges of the covering. When hammering nails into lumber a 20oz claw hammer would be the tool of choice. Driving a railroad spike might call for a 16lb sledge hammer. Can you use that 16lb sledge to put the finishing tacks in the furniture you've just reupholstered? Well, yes, you could use it, but why would you? If you're thinking about using it because you can drive that tack home with a single whack, you're going about it all wrong.

[hondastrtracr]

Re: Another pass with M205

Point taken, and very good information as always. The reason I went with the 105 first was after doing a panel with only 205 there were just some scratches that would not come out. I may have been able to make more passes with the 205 but thought switching to the 105 would make more sense to accomplish full correction. I do believe now though that after removing the heavy defects and with proper care and future swirlage could be worked out with 205 and the finishing pad as you mentioned earlier. So again thanks for sharing your knowledge on this, I have learned a great deal from these forums which was my inspiration to tackle this project on my own. Next up... a heavily swirled but great over all condition/great running 89 Volvo 740GL

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Another pass with M205

Mike, this is very interesting. I'm going to give the DA my first try this weekend on my 2009 Honda Civic and was planning on 205 with an 8207 pad. The swirls really are not that bad at all though. Should I go at it with the finishing pad instead?

It might be a toss up, and it's one of those things that we can't say with 100% certainty ahead of time. On the Honda Fits we've worked on it's likely that M205/W9207 probably would have been sufficient. On your car, it might not be. You can certainly try it on a test spot, and do another test spot with the W8207 polishing pad right next to it. See which one removes the swirls better. If the finishing pad does the trick then there's no real need to use the polishing pad.

This is why when we work on a car for the first time we like to have a selection of products on hand; you just never know what's going to be the best combination until you try a couple, and what works perfectly on one car may not be so great on another.

[swcarter]

Re: Another pass with M205

Michael: How does one know if the paint is "hard" or "soft"? I started detailing as a hobby last year, by hand. Got tired of that real quick. I am waiting for the delivery of the Meg's polisher next week and would like to get it right this year. I have a 2004 Jag and a 2008 Jeep Patriot. Both cars have good paint, minimal swirls. I suspect the Jag has "harder" paint than the Jeep.

Thoughts?

[hondastrtracr]

Re: Another pass with M205

I found out by simply and gently rubbing my finger on my car. While out in the sun I could see the very faint yet noticeable scratches where I touched it. Yes it's pretty sad, but it seems Honda uses very soft paint, which is comparable to butter I would say! More expensive vehicles usually have higher quality and harder paint, that term you get what you pay for really does apply in this case.

[Alexandre]

Re: Another pass with M205

I own a 2010 Honda Civic and It is so easy to work by hand with 83/205 on its paint, it is really soft and hand friendly.

Now, I am still newbie and have a long way to go, but I think it is absolutely unnecessary to even think of 105 and a D/A to remove swirl marks and minor scratches of a Honda Civic.

As far as I know 105 is much stronger than 83, and the D/A can orbit thousands of times per minute, Goddess. That may be the same as using a butcher' s knife to shave.

[Brook]

Re: Another pass with M205

That is unfortunate. The paint on my wife's 2005 Odyssey has held up very well. I wonder if Honda has changed its paint formulation.

[Brook]

Re: Another pass with M205

Bluher, your post appeared just as I was writing mine. Can you describe how you use 83/205 on your Honda? That would be helpful.

[hondastrtracr]

Re: Another pass with M205

If I remember correctly from my extensive reading that 83/205 are very similar in many aspects the major difference is the 83 breaks down while the 205 does not. As for using the 105 I will not complain about the result I got from it, but I will be trying to just go with the method posted earlier, 205/finishing pad.

And for the record any good butcher keeps his knifes sharper than a razor blade, so imagine the closeness of the shave you could get

[Hemin8r]

Re: Another pass with M205

I have had a couple of customers who have used the 105/205 combination and have told me they weren't too happy with the results. The problem in their case was that they were too much in a hurry to knock out the swirls and other minor defects. When I mentioned to them to start out with the 205 they told me they did but it "took too long" to remove the swirls. After a small demonstration with 205 & a W8006 pad on the PC on a "Small" section at a time they were amazed and couldn't believe why they weren't getting the same results on their car. It takes patience and some simple technique without the overkill.