My spending freeze, what products to use

[Markus Kleis]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

Try the panel at a time & see how it goes. If get to where you really need a hand I'm out on the east side of the metro area. Maybe a work day can be arranged - after it warms up a little. Today's forecast high in the Kansas City metro area - 33 degrees F.

This is why I love MOL. It's the people!

[Nappers]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

This is why I love MOL. It's the people!

You said it

[Mary S]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

Get a feel for how quickly you can burn paint off the edge of the panel. That's one of the biggest issues when working with a rotary buffer

Michael, thanks again for the advice. About the edge of the panel, I noted that was mentioned in the Meguiars Youtube videos about wet sanding and using the rotary, but they didn't give an explanation (maybe they had already covered that in the class). May I ask what it is that makes the edge so treacherous? Also, what is the best technique to do the edges of a piece without burning the paint off? Keeping the pad flat? Moving right to left versus moving left to right, or does that matter?

Hopefully I will get the hood by this weekend.

Thanks

[Mary S]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

This is why I love MOL. It's the people!

Absolutely! You are all fantastic and helpful!

[agp56]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

The edge of the panel is often where the paint is the thinnest. Also some panels are prone very small chips that are not always seen.

[Mary S]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

The edge of the panel is often where the paint is the thinnest. Also some panels are prone very small chips that are not always seen.

Okay, thanks. So sounds like the best thing to do is mask near the edges with the rotary and do them (carefully) by hand or maybe a DA.

[agp56]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

When you look at some of the pictures of the cars getting ready for their extreme makeovers, you may see some with either blue (usually) or green tape over the edges of the panels. They are implementing what you are taking about.

[flakybear]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

Should you tape edges if your using a da like the g110v2?

[agp56]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

If you are the least bit concerned with the pad getting somewhere you don't want it to, you may want to tape it off. You may want to search the word taping here on the site and get some ideas......

[Mary S]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

This story has a happy ending, or maybe just a happy middle but I was able to locate a hood on craigslist. It is from a burgundy colored 1989 BMI 325i with original factory paint, all the scratches and swirls you could possibly want, edges and high point ridges. The guy was only selling it for $50 because there were a few shallow dents in it but that isn't a problem for me.

I have ordered the 105 and 205, but for now I played on one little corner to see what worked and what didn't with what I have. UC and SwirlX weren't enough by hand but worked great with the rotary and a wool W-4000 pad (This is the only Meguiars pad I have for now, but a polishing pad is on order)

Then I tried wetsanding with a 2000 grit paper, the highest I have, to try to get some of the deeper scratches out. It worked great! My little corner looks impressive. (This can't be more than about 12 inches or so).

So far, I just masked off the edges so I wouldn't have to deal with them my first time around. Again, I tried working on them by hand but can't match what the rotary could do.

I used to test software for a living, and I think I naturally love to test things. This hood will keep me happy for a long time! I can't wait to get the pads and 105 and 205.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

Here's the deal with edges and sharp body lines/creases, plastic trim and lights when working with a rotary buffer:

Edges: When paint is sprayed it tends to flow away from the edges of body panels, meaning the paint ends up thinner on these edges than on the face of the panel. Obviously thinner paint is going to be easier to buff through than thicker paint, and this is exacerbated by the fact that body panels don't always line up as perfectly as we'd like them to. You often end up with one panel a bit higher than the other, thereby exposing this thinly painted edge. If you aren't careful or aren't really aware of your surroundings when rotary buffing, repeatedly going over these edges can quickly take the paint right off. In reality, burning through the paint in the middle of a panel takes a bit of doing, but a panel edge can be damaged in a matter of seconds.

Sharp body lines/creases: While the paint may be a bit thinner here than on a flat surface, it's generally not as severe as panel edges. Still, these sharp lines are exposed to concentrated energy of the rotary buffer and should be approached with caution and buffed up to, but not directly over. Obviously the more aggressive the pad being used the greater the risk of damage.

Plastic trim, tail light lenses, etc: When you see these taped off prior to rotary buffing, it's done to save these pieces from damage. Where a D/A buffer can go over these without damage (although with the nuisance of leaving product to dry in the texture or edges) a rotary with an aggressive pad will damage these in a heart beat. A foam cutting pad spinning at 1500rpm will badly burn a protruding tail light lens in an instant, and you might not even feel that you've touched it. A little painters tape is fantastic insurance for this, and other, trim.

Sometimes you don't have much of a choice but to approach a panel edge when rotary buffing. Where a door and fender meet, for example, you should tape off the panel adjacent to the one you're working on, especially if the adjacent panel is "higher" than the one you're working on.

On areas like the edge of the hood up by the cowl, where it just sort of ends with nothing against it, you want to buff off the edge, not onto it. If you look at a pad that is halfway off the edge and spinning in a clockwise direction, the 12 o'clock position will be completely off the hood, 3 o'clock will be coming onto the hood, 6 o'clock is fully on the hood, and 9 o'clock is rolling off the edge of the hood. The critical areas here are 3 and 9 o'clock. At 3 o'clock with the pad riding up on the edge it's putting a lot of energy onto that thin paint, where as at 9 o'clock it's just rolling off the edge. So you want to tip that pad slightly to remove that pressure from the 3 o'clock position, but not so much so that you increase pressure at 9 o'clock. Of course you would never take the pad halfway off the edge, but even a little overlap will cause the area coming back onto the panel to generate that high energy unless you tilt the pad a little bit.

On a test panel you can play with this easily. Tip the pad a bit toward the 3 o'clock position and see how quickly a foam cutting pad will go through that edge.

[Mary S]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

Thanks again, Michael, for your very helpful explanation. I am sure I will be very conservative about taping if I use a rotary on one of our cars, and I will practice what you said about putting pressure. Luckily, the paint on our cars is good enough that I don't think I will have to do anything aggressive with it.

The test spot I am doing on the hood, I don't know if I could do anything much less aggressive that I was, with a wool pad and UC and wet sanding, because this one is very scratched up, and I understand the BMW paint is pretty hard.



In the next couple of days I will be getting more pads and products so I can test other combinations of aggressiveness.

[speed3blackmica]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

Micheal Stoops, i read your whole post on Edges and rotary buffing and i fully understood what you meant by it, it was very very clear. However, should the same precautions be taken with the g110v2 ? i never taped off edges with my DA and i never had any problem. Of course i was never buffing on the edges, only coming up to them. but im just wondering so i thought id ask

[Michael Stoops]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

Marcki, it looks like you're developing your rotary skills just beautifully and you're taking a great approach to it. Keep it up and you'll be working on your cars in no time.

Speed3, generally speaking you don't need to worry about panel edges, body lines, trim, lights, etc when working with a G110v2 or other D/A as the action of the pad and the power of tool do not pose the same threats to these surfaces as a rotary would. The higher rpm (well, the direct rpm in general!) of the rotary and the power behind it is what makes it potentially dangerous, but also highly effective. A major exception here is when dealing with an older car with original paint, especially when you don't know the history of the paint. Old single stage paint tends to be fairly soft, and if it's also really thin then you can go through an edge with a D/A. But on a modern car with an otherwise healthy factory paint job, it's generally not a concern.

You'll see people taping off trim and such when D/A polishing to avoid getting product onto textured vinyl trim or in the cracks so as to make clean up easier. You tape off when rotary buffing for the same reasons, but also to protect these areas.

Having said all that, we have still seen people go through their clear coat with a D/A, but it takes some effort, and it takes doing things we don't normally recommend. It used to be almost unheard of for people to use very strong compounds with a D/A, and they generally used 5.5" to 7" pads with them. Now, with the advent of products like M105 and the growing popularity of 4" pads, things are changing a bit. Just a couple of years ago the strongest product we recommended for use with a D/A was M83, now it's M105. There is a huge difference in the amount of cut these two products offer. 4" pads really concentrate the energy of a D/A into a small area, so they give a good deal more cut on a D/A than a 6" pad does (the opposite is true when using them on a rotary). Now, couple M105 wit a 4" pad, then put a good bit of pressure down on that pad and crank the machine way up and you can run into problems faster than you might think. People have been told for years that you can't damage the paint with a D/A but they don't stop and think about how much these advances in product/pad technology can change things. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use M105 with a 4" pad, just that you need to be aware of what's really going on, pay attention to what you're doing (feel the paint for heat buildup, for example) and just make use of the greatest tool available in your detailing arsenal - your brain.

[speed3blackmica]

Re: My spending freeze, what products to use

wow, i dont think you can could have put it any better...Mike, i just might have to ask you, but were you at all a major in effective writing ? because you make the some of the most mistaken concepts and techniques sound so easy. i dont know how you do it, but thank you very much for that info. its stuff like that i never forget when im working on a car. ill always forget to do something like for example, clean up my entire car, but forget to clean the exhaust tip which looks carbon black after a few days..but i never forget information like this. its honestly stronger than the machine itself. When i first got a DA, i used ultimate compound and got almost no where ! until i learned all the proper techniques here on MOL, i was amazed at how i was doing basically the same thing but with proper technique, but getting 100% perfect results..it was the same machine, same compound, same amount of it. all i had to do was just learn the right moves, and relax my arms a bit. Next thing i know ive got the whole car swirl free in about an hour via DA! anyway, im definitely rambling. just wanted to say how much i appreciate the help of many many people on here, perhaps i should start a new thread for my thank you's !

oh and Marcki, your really doing a great job ! keep it up