Touchless Car Wash

[MrWaxer]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

Thank's Mike..Yes I live in Upstate NY..So they salt the road's ALOT here.. I asked the people who own the car washes around here and they said they only use soft cloth.

[k3ith]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

You know, a car dealer once told me to spray PAM kitchen product on my front bumper before traveling to help with bugs sticking. I have never done it cause i just can't see putting butter on my car but maybe this is something to consider for salt. For sure don't do it until someone else more experienced replies to this with how it could affect the sealer / wax, but i thought I would throw it out.

[Sandstone]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

I will use the wand wash with soap or water only prior to going thru a touchless. Then I usually follow-up with an M135 wipedown if it's still dirty. The Touchless washes are really only good for light summer dust (like it's been a few days to a week and not rained) and or that bone freezing quick winter wash. The under car wash is a plus in salt country. The one I use has a blower which is nice.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

Thank's Mike..Yes I live in Upstate NY..So they salt the road's ALOT here.. I asked the people who own the car washes around here and they said they only use soft cloth.

Beware the soft cloth. How many cars have they touched before touching yours? How much dirt have they picked up? How often are the soft cloths cleaned? The softest towel, pad, cloth, applicator, whatever is only as soft as the nastiest bit of debris lodged in it. That's easy to monitor when you own and maintain the towels, etc but when someone else is doing it, and washing a couple hundred cars a day, the game changes.

You know, a car dealer once told me to spray PAM kitchen product on my front bumper before traveling to help with bugs sticking. I have never done it cause i just can't see putting butter on my car but maybe this is something to consider for salt. For sure don't do it until someone else more experienced replies to this with how it could affect the sealer / wax, but i thought I would throw it out.

This is another case where the protection it offers may outweigh the chance that it removes any wax from the surface. If bugs will wipe right off instead of sticking and potentially etching, then it's a good thing. Keep in mind that if bug juice, or anything else, can etch your paint then no wax on the market is going to stop it. In order to do so that would assume the wax is harder/stronger than the paint itself. Whether or not this is the best method for you is up to you. Others will use a vinyl bra only for long road trips and then remove the bra upon arrival. Still others will wrap the front of the car in painters tape to protect it. Might look silly while you're driving, but it serves the purpose.

[speed3blackmica]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

Beware the soft cloth. How many cars have they touched before touching yours? How much dirt have they picked up? How often are the soft cloths cleaned? The softest towel, pad, cloth, applicator, whatever is only as soft as the nastiest bit of debris lodged in it. That's easy to monitor when you own and maintain the towels, etc but when someone else is doing it, and washing a couple hundred cars a day, the game changes.


This is another case where the protection it offers may outweigh the chance that it removes any wax from the surface. If bugs will wipe right off instead of sticking and potentially etching, then it's a good thing. Keep in mind that if bug juice, or anything else, can etch your paint then no wax on the market is going to stop it. In order to do so that would assume the wax is harder/stronger than the paint itself. Whether or not this is the best method for you is up to you. Others will use a vinyl bra only for long road trips and then remove the bra upon arrival. Still others will wrap the front of the car in painters tape to protect it. Might look silly while you're driving, but it serves the purpose.

my friend does that with the painters tape on his volskwagen when he drives up to H20 car show for volskwagens...he covers the front bumper and hood in painters tape...believe it or not..it looks pretty cool ! lol

[buda]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

After 40 years in the car wash business I can offer you some thoughts from years of experience.

Touchless car washing is basically the same "two-step" process they have used to clean over-the-road aluminum trailers, that is:

a. Hydroflouric acid then
b. High alkaline chemical

This process literally burns the dirt and oxidized aluminum off the surface. In the case of a paint job nothing gets burnt, but over time the clear coat will dull subjected to this chemical process.

On top of that, this process literally "strips" off any wax or sealant protection.

So much for "safe" touchless washing.

When the car wash industry, as a whole, came down on the use of hydroflouric acid (the same acid the detail industry uses in wheel cleaners) most of the chemical companies and touchless car wash equipment companies either started to call their acid chemical "low-pH cleaner," which is nothing but another name for acid.

They also eliminated, or offered as an alternative a no-acid cleaning using a higher pH alkaline cleaner.

The question then is: "If you use chemical, acid, alkaline or both to strip off dirt and oil film what does it do to wax or sealant which is oil-based?"

Of course, it strips it off.

The safest way to clean a car is to wash it with low pH shampoos and friction.

To say that automatic cloth or foam car wash systems are not safe is falacious. The car in an automatic car wash is bombarded with gallons of water and lots of chemical as is the washing material which forms a barrier between the paint and the washing material to protect from scratching or marring.

Conversely when you wash with a sponge or car wash mitt as soon as you touch the car with the sponge or mitt the dirt particles are imbedded in the material and act like a fine sandpaper each time it is applied to the surface.

Unless the washer uses a lot of water between the sponge or mitt they are scratching the paint.

The Technological University of Munich did a study for Mercedes Benz "handwashing vs machine washing."

They found after 26 washes that the finishes on the vehicles that were hand washed had far more damage that had to be corrected by buffing and polishing than did the machine washed cars.

Why?

As discussed, because in hand washing the sponge or mitt became impregnated with grit which served to scratch the paint.

Think about it as a detailer or handwasher. How many of you keep a hose running and pointed on the surface when you are using the sponge or mitt to wash creating a barrier???

Or how many washers simply dip the sponge or mitt "once" and then wash the entire vehicle with one or max. two dips in the wash bucket? Erroneously thinking that the suds on the car are doing something to clean the car?

We teach our detailers to dip their mitt everytime they move to different section of the car before washing that section.

How many of you use a clean, fresh wash sponge or mitt for each new car?

How many thoroughly power wash all the surface dirt off the finish before using friction?

Most car washes use either a handheld power washer or a freestanding high pressure arch to do this. Bear in mind not all automatic car washes are perfect but they do have the advantage of gallons of water and shampoo on the vehicle to serve as a barrier.

I wash my black sedan every week in an automatic car wash and there are no more scratches or mars in it than with a handwash, less I am sure.

Just some well intentioned thoughts on the subject.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

[JSM]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

In reality, there is no such thing as a "touchless wash". After you drive through the tunnel, they dry your car with towels that have been subjected to other cars that are probably maintained to sub-par standards. I've even seen some operators use a giant "broom" to agitate a prewash solution before you go through the tunnel.

Do yourself a favor and hand wash, it's the best for the long-term life of your clearcoat.

[buda]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

Of course you can wash your car any way you choose and are entitled to your opinion. But I do challenge the inaccuracies of some of your statements, to wit:

1. The towels used in automatic carwashes are used in two ways: towels for the body and towels for the windows. They are used once and then washed before being used on another car.

2. The "brooms" as you call them are gentle horsehair fibers ($85ea) and more gentle to the finish than the synthetic material used in car wash mitts.

You claim handwashing is better without refuting the findings and logic of the University of Munich study. Do you have research that disproves their findings?

I think if you are going to criticize an industry and method of washing you should have some facts to back up your contensions and accusations.

Just some well intentioned thoughts

Bud Abraham

PS. If u would like a copy of the University of Munich Study let me knowظ

[JSM]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

Of course you can wash your car any way you choose and are entitled to your opinion. But I do challenge the inaccuracies of some of your statements, to wit:

1. The towels used in automatic carwashes are used in two ways: towels for the body and towels for the windows. They are used once and then washed before being used on another car.

2. The "brooms" as you call them are gentle horsehair fibers ($85ea) and more gentle to the finish than the synthetic material used in car wash mitts.

You claim handwashing is better without refuting the findings and logic of the University of Munich study. Do you have research that disproves their findings?

I think if you are going to criticize an industry and method of washing you should have some facts to back up your contensions and accusations.

Just some well intentioned thoughts

Bud Abraham

PS. If u would like a copy of the University of Munich Study let me knowظ

Bud,

While I do respect your statements, they are very far from reality. Do you specifically quote evidence from actual car wash operators on what their procedures are? Just because your company might employ certain techniques doesn't necessarily mean that every "mom and pop" car wash is going to do the same. Businesses are businesses, and I can guarantee that procedures will vary depending on what the owner and/or manager sees as most cost-effective in his/her own eyes. Most of what I said in my previous statement is based on my experience and that of Meguiar's and other many respected car care companies in the industry. The safest way to reduce the potential of instilling swirls and/or scratches in a clearcoat, and also maintaining the life of the clearcoat comes from a safe, gentle hand wash with a mild car wash soap.

While you are stating that most use towels once and then wash them before using on another car is plain absurd. Just take a trip down to any local wash, and you'll clearly see that most of the attendants are not drying one car and then picking up another towel to be used for the next car coming out of the tunnel. Moreover, for the sake of speed and efficiency, it seems as though one towel is used for the whole car, rather than having to switch to dedicated towels for a particular surface.

As far as the "brooms", can you tell me what kind of dirt and grit will be accumulated in them from the previous car that went through the wash? If it was a Suburban with caked on mud and grime, then I don't care how soft the fibers are...it's not touching my car!

While I think you do offer valid viewpoints, they just don't seem to fit in with the type of car enthusiasts that we are here at Meguiar's. I haven't been to a operator-owned car wash in my 10+ years of detailing experience, and I probably never will be. What I stated above are simply observations of having taken many of my vehicles to car washes in the past, and being fed up with how they looked in the end. They don't take the time or effort to replicate what I can do with my own two God-given hands and a bucket of Gold Class Car Wash...period!

[buda]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

Jeff

We all have opinions.

I am not an operator although I have operated car washes in the past.

Today I sell detailing equipment and related products.

When I speak of automatic carwashes I am speaking of full service professional carwashes, not the car washes at gasoline stations. I would fullly agree that they do no wash the towels, if they even use them.

Professional full service carwashes have large washer extractors that are running all day washing towels and they use sets of towels only once on a car.

Agreed not all carwashes operate properly, but I can guarantee you that the majority of detail operations or hand washes do not put a lot of water and a lot of soap on the car through the wash process as I indicated.

The dip once and maybe twice on a dirty car and then mitt the entire car rubbing grit and send into the paint that is in the mitt or sponge.

If a person is a car enthusiasts I would agree they would probably take my advise to heart and insure that they have no grit in their mitt or sponge.

But commercial hand washes and detailers do not and I would bet $1,000 that if you and I visited randomly selected detail shops unannounced that we would find their hand washing methods like the University of Munich study described.

Willing to take me up on the wager?

Regards
Bud Abraham

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

There is no doubt that many people who hand wash do so incorrectly. Sometimes very incorrectly. Likewise, there are commercial tunnel style car washes that do in fact do an outstanding job, are very careful about how they maintain the equipment in the tunnel, their towels, etc and how they train their people.

On the flip side, you simply can not state in extremely broad terms that one is automatically superior to another in all cases. Some of us have personally witnessed towels being picked up off the ground and immediately used on the paint, or towels being used to dry the wheels and then taken straight to the hood, fenders, doors or other painted areas. Where have we seen this? Some have seen their neighbor do it in the driveway, others have seen attendants at commercial car washes do it. It's wrong in both places. Problem is, not everyone is taught proper car washing & drying techniques. And that includes both "at home" and "at work".

Regardless where you have your car washed, it is critical that best practices be used. But broad generalizations regarding one side or another never tell the whole story, or everyone's story.

Bud, unfortunately you're correct that a random sampling of hand wash facilities and pro detailers will turn up guys who aren't washing/drying correctly. Heck, a random sampling of detailers will turn up plenty of guys who use a rotary without the proper skill. But placing a wager on it is dangerous. We could go double or nothing and visit a commercial tunnel wash and find some with horrid housekeeping practices and techniques in general that would scare the daylights out of any true car crazy enthusiast.

In reality, there is no such thing as a "touchless wash". After you drive through the tunnel, they dry your car with towels that have been subjected to other cars that are probably maintained to sub-par standards.

There are completely unattended touchless washes at gas stations here in SoCal. You pay for the wash at the pump while filling up, then drive into the bay, put the car in park and let the detergent and neutralizing rinse do their thing. When done you slowly drive out of the tunnel, past a collection of huge blowers that dry the car. There is no physical touching of the car by any towel, cloth strip, brush, sponge, you name it. Just the soap and water.

[jfelbab]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

In reality, there is no such thing as a "touchless wash". After you drive through the tunnel, they dry your car with towels that have been subjected to other cars that are probably maintained to sub-par standards. I've even seen some operators use a giant "broom" to agitate a prewash solution before you go through the tunnel.

Do yourself a favor and hand wash, it's the best for the long-term life of your clearcoat.

In reality there is. You just haven't been to one I see. The local LaserWash is touchless. Totally touchless. The only thing that touches your car is the soap solution, high pressure water and the car is dried with pulsated high velocity air. It does a pretty decent job too and after the deionized rinse the water seems to flow off really easy and doesn't leave spots.

Here are a couple youtubes that shows true touchfree carwash in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU53tpS9nxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzf77wBFmCw

[TOGWT]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

I support 'Buda' take on the so-called 'touchless' car wash


'Touch less’ carwash

Cleaning requires; a cleaning agent (soap, detergent or a chemical cleaner) and friction. Without friction a very strong cleaning agent is required. Heated water breaks down water-soluble soiling faster as it reduces overall chemical usage because it reduces the surface tension of the fibre. Heat acts as a catalyst promoting quicker reactions between chemicals and the soil thereby minimizing dwell time.

Most so called ‘Touch less’ car washes today use a low pH (Hydroflouric) acid as a first step, an alkaline to neutralize it and then high pressure water to wash cars. Hand washing is MUCH preferred, don’t use an automated car wash period, touch less or not, there are a variety of reasons: You should never, under any circumstances use a car wash that requires you to let another person drive your vehicle onto the ramps or into the wash, notice the disclaimer “No responsibility for damage to customer’s vehicle.”

An extract from one of a series of unbiased “Detailing Technical Papers” © TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2009, all rights reserved.

[buda]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

I am told that the auto manufacturers would void the "paint finish" warranty if they were aware that a vehicle is taken through a wash that uses acid on the finish.

Look in the owner's manuals, they say in most, "do not wash the car with solvents, acids or "harsh" chemicals.

Again, I have nothing to gain one way or another whether one uses a professional automatic car wash or not. All I am interested in conveying is the truth and for the most part, professional automatic carwashes (using cloth or foam wash material) are as safe or safer, as handwashing.

I have no hesitation to recommend to my friends who know I am in the detail industry that it is ok to use an automatic wash, especially the local chain here in Portland that does an outstanding job of applying water and shampoo on the vehicle through the entire wash process. They only do exterior washing, so no towels.

As Michael stated there are some good washes and some bad as there are some good detailers and some bad. It is up to the consumer to separate the good from the bad. And it is up to the business owner to convince customers they are one of the good ones.

If automatic car washes are bad why do all the major manufacturers have automatic washers in their assembly-plants; their pre-delivery centers; in their dealerships and they even provide low-interest financing for dealers to purchase automatic carwashes.

In Japan a friend of mine is a distributor for one of the US companies and all his sales today are to the auto manufacturers for their pre-delivery centers and their dealers. His biggest customers are BMW and Mercedes Benz.

A few years back I sold an automatic carwash system to the BMW/Mercedes dealer in Portland for their new dealership.

Key here is to separate fact from fiction, or opinion.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS
Proud Member of the INTERNATIONAL DETAILING ASSOCIATION

Regards
Bud Abraham

[MrWaxer]

Re: Touchless Car Wash

Wow...Alot of thoughts on this..My biggest problem is that I can not wash my car by hand during the winter and I want to keep it as clean as possible. I did give it two coats of NXT 2.0 just last month so that should hold up until I can get a break in the weather up here to give it another coat.. My other big consern was the biggest difference between touchless car washes and one's with strips of cloth that hang down and agitate back and forth.. Most people agree that the soap in touchless one's is MUCH stronger than one's with strips..