Oils in polish / wax?

[TOGWT]

Reading your article “Why Meguiar’s recommends polishing paint” prompted the following questions:
I understand the need for replacing the oils a resin type paint system without a clear coat. Wouldn’t a urethane type clear coat or the newer water based paint negate the use of oils in polish/wax other than a requirement for a paint lubricant / spread ability?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Oils in polish / wax?

Originally posted by TOGWT
Reading your article “Why Meguiar’s recommends polishing paint” prompted the following questions:
I understand the need for replacing the oils a resin type paint system without a clear coat. Wouldn’t a urethane type clear coat or the newer water based paint negate the use of oils in polish/wax other than a requirement for a paint lubricant / spread ability?

Clear coats are made from clear resins. Whether they be urethane, acrylic, polyurethane or whatever, the sticky stuff that is sprayed onto the car is resin, whether it’s clear or pigmented, it is a resin coating.

Despite what the raw material is for the resin, the resin will deteriorate over time if not preserved. Just to double check, next time your in a big parking lot full of mostly newer cars, walk around and inspect the finishes. Do they all look like they did when they were driven off the show room floor?

The answer of course is no. They have deteriorated. Some of this deterioration will be swirls and scratches, some of it will be oxidation, some of it will be bonded contaminants and some of it will be etchings. Whatever the deterioration is, the plain fact is, deteriorated paint doesn’t look good.

When paint does deteriorate, both single stage and clear coat finishes, then in order to restore the paint to it's original clearness and gloss, you need to apply something to it.

You can choose whatever something you like to apply to the deteriorated finish, but a Meguiar's pure polish, with it's rich trade secret oils has a long history of successfully restoring the color, clarity, gloss, shine and brilliance to finishes that have been neglected. (Of course if the finish is neglected you should use a paint cleaner first, but even Meguiar’s paint cleaners contain Meguiar’s rich trade secret oils to both lubricate the surface while cleaning, but to also restore the paint by gorging the microscopic surface imperfections, cracks, scratches, pores, fissures, etc. with an oil that brings out the beauty in the paint.

Clarity, richness of color, depth, gloss, reflectivity, shine etc. are the characteristic that I think most people would agree make paint look good.

The opposite of applying a Meguiar's pure polish to a clear resin, (clear coat paint), would be to apply something that dulls the finish and makes it less clear, this could be products that dry-out the clear resin, things like detergent washes, isopropyl alcohol, harsh solvents, etc. These ingredients do not add beauty, they take away beauty. When you wash your car with Dawn, you are doing what is called working backwards. (Of course, this assumes your goal is to make your paint look good)

Regardless of the resin type, the application of a product like Meguiar's #81 Hand Polish, #7 Show Car Glaze, and Deep Crystal Step 2 Polish, have historically always increased clearness, beauty and gloss.

Perhaps in the future their will be a paint type, (resin type), that needs nothing to remain deep, dark, clear, glossy and beautify, but as of today, that paint doesn’t' exist.

Try this experiment sometime.

Wash your car with dawn about a dozen times. This works best with a dark colored car. Next, tape off a section like down the middle of the hood. Next, apply a Meguiar's pure polishes to one side of the taped off section. Wipe off the polish and compare the polished side to the dawn washed side.

Which side looks more clear? Which side has better gloss? Which side has more depth and color?

Isn't polishing paint about making it look it's best? If so, how do you describe the word best?

For me, I like a paint to be clear, reflective and glossy. This is the results a Meguiar's pure polish has been producing for over 100 years on all paint types, (resin types). Now, after removing the polish, apply a coat or two of a protective wax and you will have just locked in the beauty a Meguiar’s polish creates. Polishing and Protecting are just two steps in Meguiar’s 5-Step Paint Care Cycle. A system of washing, cleaning, polishing, protecting and maintaining paint that has endured the test of time and is used all around the word to make all types of paint resins look their best.

I have yet to see an exterior automotive paint type that doesn’t look better and last longer with regular application of a Meguiar’s polish. And I’ve polished out a more cars than I can possibly ever remember with all types of paint finishes, in all types of conditions.

While I didn’t apply a pure polish to the below car, I could have. Instead I used #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish which also contains Meguiar’s rich trade secret oils, just look at that reflection!



Here's a before,



Here's an after,



As you can see, Meguiar's cleaners, polishes and waxes create they kind of deep, clear, reflective high gloss results that people admire and any Corvette owner would be proud of.

So to answer your question,

Originally posted by TOGWT
Wouldn’t a urethane type clear coat or the newer water based paint negate the use of oils in polish/wax other than a requirement for a paint lubricant / spread ability?

The answer is no.

The oils Meguair's uses in their products add beauty, gloss, depth of color, and clarity. They make your paint look its best! And, these Meguiar's products have been doing this for about as long as cars have been around.

Does this explain your question?

Mike

[TOGWT]

Adequately, thank you. As you can tell I’m not a ‘paint’ man and as always you/this forum always provide clear concise answers to what must to you sound like very mundane basic questions.

[Mike Phillips]

No problem.

I know that this topic is talked about on a lot of other forums. Thanks for asking the question.

Anyone reading this unsure of the origin of this question, here's a link to the artcle,

Why Meguiar’s recommends polishing paint

Mike

[agentf1]

Sure if you put oils on paint it looks better but is the paint actually absorbing any of these oils?

[rek]

"restore the paint by gorging the microscopic surface imperfections, cracks, scratches, pores, fissures, etc. with an oil that brings out the beauty in the paint. " I think the "Oils" adhere to the paint, as compared to what a sponge does. Whatever goes on, after you buff it, wipe it with a clean white cloth. See if the cloth has any "Oil" on it. See if the paint still looks better, like that Vette, in Mike's photo. Absorb, or adhere, if it shines, and is clear like the Vette, you got it...

[Slats]

Mike,
Does that mean you recommend polishing every time you wax? I usually don't polish because my cars are light colors and I can't see the difference if I polish. Does polish benefit the paint even if I don't see the difference??

Slats

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by agentf1
Sure if you put oils on paint it looks better but is the paint actually absorbing any of these oils?

The answer is Yes, but with a qualifier.

To the degree in which a surface absorbs anything, water, oil, polymer silicone, wax etc., will depend upon how porous the surface coating is. Lest we limit our discussion to only oils, do not forget that a brand new paint job will not readily absorb anything, not even water. Older paints like lacquers and enamels will tend to be more porous than a brand new factory clear coat. An older, clear coat will be more porous than a brand new factory clear coat. Therefore, the answer is relative to the paint type, (or surface type), and the condition and age of the paint type, (or surface type).

The same goes for other surfaces such as Fiberglas gel coats. Older gel coat finishes are much more porous than newer gel coat finishes. Newer gel coat finishes are also much harder than older gel coat technology Have your seen an old gel coat boat lately and compared it to a new gel coat boat? Big difference in the finish of the gel coat. Same goes for plastics, Plexiglas is more prone to oxidize than Lexan, Lexan is often coated, and much harder than Plexiglas.

Note a quote from the article,

Even though modern resins are more durable, they will breakdown over time through deterioration.

Deterioration is usually caused by the forces of oxidation, or reduction. Primarily deterioration comes from exposure to outdoor environments such as inclement weather, or warm temperatures and direct sunlight. Washing with high alkaline detergent soaps accelerate this deterioration by stripping any wax protection off the surface and by attacking and drying out the resins. Think about it this way, if you have a brand new car or a brand new paint job and you store the car in a garage, (or say a museum), the finish never deteriorates. That's because it is never exposed to forces that attack and deteriorate the resins.

When the resins breakdown and are removed from the surface, they leave behind pockets of air or pores into which water and other unwanted substances can penetrate into. When water, high alkaline detergent soaps, acid rain, alkaline rain, harsh solvents or other unwanted substances get into these pores they act to accelerate the deterioration process, (oxidation or reduction).

When you apply a Meguiar's polish, the trade secret oils found in all Meguiar’s polishes, (and even Meguiar’s compounds, cleaner/polishes and even some waxes), they penetrate into the paint and replace the original resins, (or oils), that have been broken-down, leached out and/or deteriorated. These trade secret oils then act to fill the empty microscopic pores, air pockets and surface imperfections thus preventing unwanted substances from entering into these areas, thus stopping and/or slowing down deterioration.

For over 100 years, Meguiar’s trade secret oils have been proven to beautify and maintain automotive paints.

You see most coatings or surfaces, (gel coat and plastics like the rear window in an older Corvette removable hardtop, or boat windshields aren't really coatings, but are surfaces), when brand new, start out very impermeable. That is they have a very tight pore structure which is very smooth and defect-free. *If* the surface is exposed to normal wear and tear through day in, day out use, the surface becomes more permeable, that is to say the once smooth hard surface accumulates thousands and thousands of scratches through things as simple as washing and drying with less than premium car washing and drying products as well as poor technique.

Look at the below picture again,



Notice all of the scratches? These scratches were not in the paint after the car left the paint booth on the assembly line. So... where did they come from?

When you look at the sun reflecting on your car, or just about any car in a parking lot, chances are good you will see what is referred to as cobweb-effect. If it wasn’t there when the paint was brand new... where did it come from?

Point being, unless your car is a garage queen or a museum piece, (and a I would guess that a majority of the cars in the world do not fit the above two descriptions, but are instead, Daily Drivers), then generally speaking, most cars are subjected to the forces of deterioration. In other words, most finishes are actively becoming more permeable, versus actively becoming more impermeable.

Paint doesn't actually become more impermeable on it's own, it does become artificially more impermeable when you and I apply a polish and then a paint protectant.

Back to your question,

Originally posted by agentf1
Sure if you put oils on paint it looks better but is the paint actually absorbing any of these oils?

The answer is Yes, but with a qualifier.

It depends on the paint, and how permeable it has become. In other words, a brand new paint job will not absorb very much oil at all. For that matter, brand new paint will not absorb water or wax, or even synthetic polymer based paint protectants sometimes labeled as polishes. On paint like this, these substances will more or less only sit on the top of the surface.

This now leads to another topic we could talk about, another catch-word on the Internet, Layering. In other words, How much wax, or polish, can a surface hold before you are simply wasting product by applying it and then removing it with your microfiber, or cotton towel.

Conversely, older paint jobs will absorb more oil than a newer paint jobs and again, to what degree will depend on the type of paint, and the state of deterioration, (or lack thereof).

A simple test to prove this point would be to take an oxidized finish, either single stage, or base coat clear coat. Wash the surface and then inspect. Now, do a side by side test by applying a product like #7 Show Car Glaze or #81 Hand Polish onto the surface and work it in well. Now use a microfiber to remove the excess from the surface. When you satisfied you have removed any oils sitting on the surface, remove you tape line and inspect both sides, the unpolished side and the polished side. Which side looks darker and more clear?

If you do the test correctly, the polished side will look darker and more clear. Now, if you removed the polishing oils off the surface, why does the polished side still look darker and more clear than the untreated side?

Because the polishing oils penetrated below the surface.

Mike

p.s.

For what it’s worth, to talk about whether or not polishing oils penetrate the surface and are beneficial to a surface or a material, be it an automotive paint, or Fiberglas gel coat or a plastic window is one thing. The real deal is when you're actually working on something that’s important to you, or in my case, working on something that’s important to someone else.

Example: I have an upcoming detail that is an all original 1954 Ford Sunliner with original paint that has been mostly garage-kept all of it’s life. I have been told the paint is solid, (that means its all there and in good shape, the word good as it is used here means it's not lacquer checked, or peeling off), except that it has oxidized.

I know some people would dive right in and use a paint cleaner, or a compound on this surface. I on the other hand am willing to do an extra step in an effort to make the paint more workable by first conditioning it with a well worked in application of #7 Show Car Glaze. It is my experienced opinion that this extra step won’t hurt the restoration process, and in my opinion only, it will increase the chance of successfully restoring the original paint.

(Note: I do not believe this is something that Meguiar’s teaches or recommends, it is my own technique that I use when restoring older, antique finishes. In situations like this, I do everything possible to save the original paint if this is the owners wish).

Afterwards, I’ll use Meguiar’s paint cleaners which also contains rich polishing oils for both lubricating the surface during the cleaning process and rejuvenating the dried-out paint. For the paint cleaning process, I will follow Meguiar’s sage wisdom,


”Use the least aggressive product to get the job done”

Good advice from a company that wrote the book on polishing paint…

Hope this helps…

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Slats
Mike,
Does that mean you recommend polishing every time you wax? I usually don't polish because my cars are light colors and I can't see the difference if I polish. Does polish benefit the paint even if I don't see the difference??

Slats

Good questions.

Are these cars with light colors clear coated?

Meguiar's usually states that polishing is an extra step, one that will benefit medium to dark colors more than light colors. But, after reading what I wrote above, if your finish has ever been in a neglected, or deteriorated condition, then I would say that Yes, polishing will benefit even light colors from a service life point of view.

Example: In this article I wrote,

A Lesson From White Paint

You will see a picture of a white, 1959 Cadillac, 4-door Flattop. The finish on this, although white, received a multi-step machine cleaning and machine polishing process with an application of a pure polish after the machine polishing, and before an application of wax. Needless to say, the results were dramatic indeed.

On light colored cars, polishing will usually be a matter of personal choice.

Mike

[TOGWT]

This is what propted me to ask the question:

For Auto Manufactures such as Daimler/Chrysler Corporation, General Motors and BMW, the advantages for moving to water borne finishes are aimed at reducing volatile organic vapours (VOC) emissions during application, waterborne coatings also reduce risk of fire, are easier to clean up (creating less hazardous residues) and result in reduced worker exposure to organic vapours.

Water borne paints are also more porous than conventional acrylic finishes. This accelerates a process known as drift. Drift is the process of waxes and sealants soaking into the pores of the finish. Because the finish of a painted surface looks similar to the surface of the moon, peaks and valleys etc., as sealants heat and cool, they soak into the finish. Drift occurs in every known finish, however the water borne paint allows this process to occur much more rapidly, in some cases, even as short as a two week period of time. As drift occurs, the paint is left susceptible to the outdoor elements. This leads the paint to loose gloss and be susceptible to water spots, acid rain, industrial fallout and many other forms of foreign particles.

Maintaining water borne finishes isn't dramatically different than caring for a conventional acrylic finish, however there are a few things to keep in mind.

First: Because water borne finishes are softer than conventional finishes, it isn't recommended to use either automated car washes or sponges if hand washing. Doing so will diminish gloss and create surface scratches. It is however recommended to use a soft sheepskin wash mitt to reduce the chance of scratching.

Second: When either hand or machine polishing the finish, use a polish that contains a diminishing abrasive. It provides the ability to remove stubborn defects without scratching the delicate finish.

Third: Because water borne paints are more porous, it is more important than ever to keep the finish sealed from environmental pollution and to maintain gloss and protection. A more regular routine of sealing the finish is required to achieve proper protection and achievement of gloss. As the finish stops beading, apply more protection to the surface. The time will vary along with outdoor exposure and temperature. It is also a good idea to remove all polishes and waxes with a 100% micro fibre cotton cloth to reduce the amount of friction on the finish.

Water borne finishes are becoming more and more popular among industry leaders. These finishes will improve with time, however until they perfect this process, it will just take a bit more care to maintain these delicate finishes

[rek]

15th century. Via French absorber from Latin absorbere “to swallow,” from sorbere “to **** in.” 1. take something up: to soak up a liquid or take in nutrients or chemicals gradually.
incorporate something into whole: to incorporate something into a larger entity in such a way that it loses much of its own identity
Do the "Trade Secret Oils" lose their identity, and become the finish? Does the finish become TSO?

15th century. Directly or via French, from the Latin stem adhaesion- , from adhaes- , the past participle stem of adhaerere (see adhere).] 1. sticking power: the ability to stick firmly to something

physics intermolecular attraction: the intermolecular attraction between substances that are unlike and in surface contact, causing them to cling together

Are the "Trade Secret Oils" like, or unlike, the components that make up an Automotive finish? In other words, what is missing in a "Scratch", a component of the finish, or the "Finish" itself? Is the "Finish" uniform throughout, or does the composition of the "Finish" vary from top to bottom? Holy Frog Hair, Batman, Isn't it MUCH easier to find a product you like, and use it often?:

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by agentf1
Sure if you put oils on paint it looks better but is the paint actually absorbing any of these oils?

I guess not according to what you wrote here,

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=769867

If you like NXT try Lemon Pledge. Same theory, the oils look great but after a few rains . I would never use lemon pledge on my car but have actually seen people do this and it actually made a raggy black paint job look pretty good.

Hmmm…

You also posted this,

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=778892#1546797845

I am in the process of experimenting with some different products since the dealer detailed my black benz due to a problem with them scratching it and I have to re zaino it in the spring anyway. I have tried every Meguiar’s product, Pinnacle, 113 and Griot’s. I would like to try NXT before I go back to Zaino (unless NXT proves to look better of course) but hate to waste another 15 bucks on a product that will probably sit on my shelf like all the rest. If anybody wants to send me a couple ounces of NXT for me to try, I have a brand new gallon of Meguiar’s DACP that I will never fully use and I will send you a 8 to 12 oz bottle of DACP in exchange.

According to the time stamp on the above post, 7:06 AM 3/18/2004, you posted your comment about Tech Wax without even having tried it?

First of all, Meguiar’s offers a pretty good guarantee on all their products including NXT Tech Wax.

From the back of the box,

MEGUIAR’S GUARANTEE

This is by far the easiest car wax you’ve ever used or your money back. If this product isn’t all we say it is, return the unused portion for a full refund of the verified purchase price

Tell you what agentf1,

I send you a free sample bottle of Tech Wax if you'll give it an honest test on your Corvette. Apply a couple of coats to one side of the car, and leave whatever the other polish your using on the other side of the car and then pull it out into the sun and inspect.

As far as all the durability and protection comments being floated around go, from what I can tell this is just the usual comments by people that can't attack the appearance results of Tech Wax so they aim at another target. A target that can’t be easily proved, or disproved by the average person.

Check out this thread however for one persons experience on protection from a product that beads water really well,

#20 provided better protection than Zaino..

Durability and protection are two different things to start with. Besides that, they are difficult to measure and more difficult to prove. The usual test is a test for water beading. But water beading on a surface is merely an indicator of high surface tension. Water beading doesn't automatically mean the coating you have applied is really protecting the surface.

The best thing to do is to make up your own mind after first using the product

Mike

[CRXSi90]

I have only one thought: what if you replaced the oils with something more solid + substantial? You could use something that won't wash away very soon in the place of oils, and work that into the pores of your paint. Does that make sense?

In my opinion, that would leave a similarly deep, clear, and glossy surface that would stay, and could act as your protectant. You wouldn't have to glaze then put something to hold the glaze in on.

I think that is the theory of Zaino...or maybe just Kevin's theory.