Noob query. Help!

[nola000]

I have car detailing noob issues.

After weeks of research and forum hunting I finally compiled a list of Meguiars products and tracked them down locally(thank you Carquest, the only REAL auto parts store). Here they are.

1. Meguiars #82
2. Meguiars #5
3. Meguiars #26

So I have these products plus...

1. Porter-Cable 7-whatever Dual Action polisher
2. 1 Lake Country CCS black/grey pad.
3. A gangly bunch of oddball microfiber rags I collected over the years.

My only detailing exposure in my life came when I bought my 17' center console about a year ago and proceeded to rip it apart and then wet-sanded the **** out of it using diminishing sandpaper grits in 400(in spots), 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, Aquabuff 2000, and then 2 coats of Collinites #885 Fleetwax. Needless to say its shining its *** off. Anyway...

The vehicle...

1. A 2004 Land Rover Discovery in the dreaded, but o-so-beautiful when clean "black". The vehicle spent most of its life in Oregon and now spends its time the south, ungaraged.

The climate...

1. New Orleans. If you havent been here, then think "sauna". Temperatures around 88-95 F. Humidity 80-90%. Wind 5mph. Dew point 75-85!

Today...

Temp. 90F. Humidity 70%. Dew point 77. Wind 7mph. Pretty mild for a summer day in New Orleans. So I started with the #82 with the black/grey Lake CCS pad 6.5". I squirted a spiral around the pad and spread it on speed 1. I did one panel at a time. One door at a time. After spreading it on 1 around the whole panel I jumped up to 5 and proceed to curse and scream. No sooner I spread the damn stuff out its already drying up on me. And no, Im not in the sun. Shaded area, air temp. panel. I dont know what Im doing wrong.
I spread it and it seems dry. This happened with the #5 as well. I worked it for about 3 minutes on each panel(dry, I guess) and it came out O.K. But I can still see spider webs, just not as bad as before. Shine and depth isnt that great either. Could my vehicle have been too hot or is the outside temp. too high. I would think the high humidity would counter balance the drying effect.

My questions...

1. Is this the right product combo to be using? I went with #82 instead of #80 and #9 because I wanted to do a true 3 or 4-step process(#82, #5, #26, maybe #83). I cant see how a product like #9 and #80 which use diminishing abrasives are better than 3 or 4 products that are true abrasives stepped down one after the other. I didnt want to take any short cuts like #80 "SPEED" Glaze and then throw on a wax, like the back of the bottle says. I went with #5 instead of #7 or #3 because I read that it is formulated for humid environments. Went with #26 because I read it was the longest lasting wax from Meguiars.

2. Is this the right product combo for my vehicle and swirls? Is Land Rover paint too hard for #82? Should I have stepped in with #83 or #2 and a coarser pad? I went with the #82 because it seemed like the right place to step in for the spider webs I have. Again, is Land Rover paint too hard for #82 and my swirls, or do I need a coarser pad, or was it because it was drying up or I wasnt working it long enough?

3. Why was it drying up? Maybe what I call dry everybody else calls normal. What is "too dry"? It wasnt turning to powder or anything but I could put my finger in it and it certainly felt dry. Like when carnuba wax dries up right before you buff it off. The only other polish or compound I have used was Aquabuff 2000 which the directions tell you to keep wet. Thats pretty self explanatory.

4. Should I wet the pad before I start?

5. Should I have different pads. The one black/grey Lake CCS pad I have was the same one I used to do my entire boat that I mentioned earlier and Im using it for both the #82 and the #5. I applied the #26 by hand.

Thanks in advance, Kyle C. me fail miserably

[Murr1525]

Re: Noob query. Help!

A. You are working too big of an area. Only work a 12inch square at a time. And you really need to get more pads. One is not enough for a good detail.

1. #82 is very mild, it would not be my starting point. I would start with #80/#205 as my first product on a test panel. Dont get too caught up in the names, even Meguiars takes some liberties with advertising.

2. I have no idea about the hardness of the paint. As mentioned, you would want #80 or #205 as a start. Then something stronger if needed. You would generally want a polishing pad as a starting point, and adjust the product first.

3. As mentioned, too big of an area.

4. You can, but not particularly needed.

5. As mentioned, more pads. You will want a polishing pad for the #80/#205/etc.... Then a finishing pad for the waxing step. Certainly we are more familiar with the Meguiars pads here, but plenty of people use the LC pads as well. I am sure they can tell more.

[nola000]

Re: Noob query. Help!

"I would start with #80/#205 as my first product on a test panel."

What about #83 instead of #80. I already have #82 so #80 seems kind of redundant considering its only one up on the grittiness scale from #82. Would #83 be too harsh?

Has anyone ever detailed a Land Rover, or more specifically a Discovery?

[Murr1525]

Re: Noob query. Help!

I would not use #83 much anymore. I would go to Ultimate Compound or #05 is something stronger that #80/#205 is needed.

I am sure someone here has worked on them, hopefully they will chime in.

[akimel]

Re: Noob query. Help!

Nola, as Mat (Murr1525) has mentioned, M82 is one of Meguiar's mildest polishes. It simply won't be very effective at removing swirls and scratches, especially with only a dual action polisher. Why not try out Meguiar's new polishes--SwirlX and Ultimate Compound? They aren't expensive, and you can get smaller bottles than the professional line products--and they are expressly formulated for dual action polishers. There's a reason you don't read much about M80, M82, and M83 here any more on MOL. The weekend detailers are finding the new SMAT polishes to be more effective and easier to use. If I were you, I'd take back the bottle of M82 to the store (Meguiar's has a 100% customer satisfaction guarantee) and exchange it for SwirlX and UC.

BTW, not only do you need more pads, but you also need to get yourself a bunch of good quality microfiber towels; otherwise, you will find yourself putting back into the paint the swirls you have removed.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Noob query. Help!

Kyle, it just sounds like you're making a few common rookie mistakes. Don't sweat it, we've all been there, done that. Very few got the T-shirt, or at least they aren't comfortable wearing it!

First off, as others have already mentioned, you seriously need to shrink your work area. Doing an entire panel at a time is going to reduce the effectiveness of any product - confine your work area to no more than 2' square, maybe even a bit less. Sometimes the area of a Supreme Shine Microfiber towel is a good guide to follow when learning proper technique.

Second, your product choice, both liquid and pad, is very, very mild. M82 is often used as a finishing polish, the name "Swirl Free" really referring to the elimination of swirls caused by more aggressive rotary buffing steps, not necessarily the removal of fine swirls created in the washing/drying process. Keep in mind the target market of a product when reading the label. Further, the Lake Country black pad is a finishing pad, so it too is working very gently against the paint. Defect correction can only occur when sufficient friction and energy are being applied to the paint - that comes from liquid, pad, machine speed, pressure and time. Gentle products spread over a wide area simply can not get much "work" done.

So here's what we'd recommend:

• Get at least two new polishing pads, either Meguiar's W8207 Soft Buff 2.0 Polishing pads or, if you're a big Lake Country fan, their white or orange pad (orange if you have a lot of swirls)
• Get at least one more finishing pad, either Meguiar's W9207 Soft Buff 2.0 Finishing pads or more of those black LC pads. You'll want at least one for applying the M03 Machine Glaze (although you may determine halfway through the process that you want a fresh one) and you'll need a separate finishing pad for your wax application.
• Pick up some Ultimate Compound. It's readily available at most larger auto parts stores and even at Wal-Mart. One bottle is more than enough to do your Discovery. It also stays "wet" for a long time, thereby providing a very long buffing cycle. Further, it makes use of SMAT technology, trickled down from our top line M105 Ultra Cut Compound.
• Keep your machine at speed 5, and use enough pressure to start deforming the pad a bit, but not enough to stop it from rotating. Keep the pad flat on the surface - tilting onto an edge will stop the rotation. No need to spread the product first at at a lower speed, just spread it quickly and then slow your arm speed down. No need to prime the pad either - it simply is not as critical as when working with a cutting pad on a rotary buffer.
• Work that small(ish) 2' square area - overlap your passes by 50% and move the machine s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint. Give the product/pad combo time to work. Generally if you cover your work area with overlapping side to side passes, the cover it again with overlapping vertical passes, then repeat that whole process, it should be time to wipe the product off. Consider this a single pass over the work area.
• After doing this initial area and wiping the product off, evaluate your progress before continuing. This will tell you if you need to work the product a bit longer over a given work area or even do a complete second pass over the work area. With that determined, complete the entire using the same process. You may, from time to time, find the odd scratch or etch that's a bit deeper and requires further work - that's fine, just work it a bit longer.
• Halfway through this process, change to a fresh polishing pad. You'll prevent build up of product or "loading" of the pad. You can clean your pad on the fly, but let's just concentrate on correcting the paint now.... we can get into these finer points later on.
• It is important to have several clean, quality microfiber towels on hand for product removal. Cleaners and polishes can quickly load up a towel, and once that towel is loaded with product, further product removal from subsequent work areas becomes difficult at best.
• Once the entire vehicle has been corrected with Ultimate Compound, change to a fresh finishing pad to apply the M03 Machine Glaze. Set the machine on speed 3, reduce the amount of pressure, but continue to work in 2' square areas, fully cover the work area a few times, and wipe the product off fully. Do not try to wipe it all off with a single wipe of the towel. Break into it, work it loose, flip the towel and wipe some more. Just make sure to get it all off.
• If you find the pad is loading with product halfway through this process, change to a fresh pad and continue. But if this does happen with a pure polish or wax, it means you're using too much product. Back off.
• At this point the paint should look pretty fantastic, and you're ready to apply the M26 High Tech Yellow Wax. Great choice by the way. It's a high end carnauba blend that dries clear, so it won't show off small stone chips in the hood, stain your trim, etc. It's also pretty fast drying, which can be a big plus in a humid environment.
• Change to a fresh finishing pad, keep the machine on speed 3, and apply a bead of wax to the pad and begin spreading it. You can now cover larger areas at a time, just make sure to go over every square inch at least a couple of times to ensure full coverage. You can increase your arm speed a bit, and keep just light pressure on the machine.
• Less is more here. You are just applying a thin film of wax to the surface, nothing more. 2 ounces of product will be sufficient to cover the entire Discovery. If the pad begins to feel "wet" with product, you're starting to use too much. If you can transfer a wet film of product from the pad to the paint, you don't need to add any fresh product to the pad. Most people use waaaay too much wax. Don't be one of them!
• Cover all the painted surfaces of the Discovery this way, then start cleaning up. If you want to put a tire dressing on, or clean the interior, now is the time. The wax can dry while you're doing all these other things. Besides, watching wax dry is only slightly more enjoyable than watching grass grow.
• After you're done with everything else - or approximately 20 minutes if you didn't need to do all those other things - do a quick swipe test to check if the wax is ready to remove. With a clean, dry finger, quickly swipe through the dried wax. If you reveal a clear and glossy surface then the wax is dry and ready to remove. If it smears or streaks, the wax is not dry yet.
• Removal is simple with a microfiber towel folded in quarters. Use one side for the initial wipe, then flip to the other side for a final wipe. Continue around the vehicle, unfolding the towel to reveal a fresh pair of sides every so often, until you've wiped off all the wax.
• Take a few pictures and post them up here on MOL for all to see.

That should solve your issues and get your Discovery looking the way you want.

[nola000]

Re: Noob query. Help!

Wow. Yall are super thorough. I like that.

Well, I already used the products so I cant really return them. I also like using more expensive professional products rather than consumer lines.

You are right Murr1525 and akimel I see more about Ultimate Compound, NXT Tech wax, SwirlX and such, than anything else. I would guess this has more to do with availability than effectiveness. I had a real hard time locating the professional line. Mostly just saw #26, #7. I opened them, so Im stuck with #82, #5 and #26 so Im going to forgo NXT, M205, M105, #3, SwirlX and #5. On yalls suggestions, I will go back to the store and get #83 or the Ultimate Compound.

How abrasive is "Ultimate Compound"? Where does it fall between? #83 and #80, or is it more abrasive than #83?

What the heck is SMAT?

Thanks a bunch M. Stoops. Im getting the Meguiars pads for sure this time. I can get them locally at the Carquest I mentioned. I hate having to order over the internet and wait. If Lake Country was smart they would distribute their products to some retailers to get more exposure. I shop internet for price and product selection, but when youre only spending $10-$20 anyway, then price becomes a non-factor.

Im using #5, so when do I remove it and how long should I work it in for? Same with the Ultimate Compound, #83, and #82.

[akimel]

Re: Noob query. Help!

Nola, on the difference between Meguiar's new SMAT polishes and their older diminishing abrasive polishes, see this thread:

What's the difference between Meguiar's Super Micro Abrasive technology and Meguiar's Diminishing Abrasive technology?

Do not assume that because a product belongs to the consumer line, it must be inferior to the professional line products. You will find Ultimate Compound to be a much easier product to use than M83. And best of all, it often finishes down LSP-ready, which means that you may not need to follow it up with M82, though of course you may if you want to maximize gloss. Re-read Michael Stoops's comment above and follow his recommendations to the letter.

And don't forget, always do a TEST SPOT first: How to do a Test Spot.

[nola000]

Re: Noob query. Help!

So is #83, #82 and #5 SMAT or DAT?

All the Meguiars guys on this forum really seem to push the consumer line. Why no love for the pro. stuff? Is Meguiars afraid us rookies arent going to work it properly. Like I already did. I dont want a fool-proof product just because Im a fool. I would rather yall "un-fool" me and teach me how to be a pro so I can use the stuff the big boys use.

[akimel]

Re: Noob query. Help!

So is #83, #82 and #5 SMAT or DAT?

If I told you, what would happen to the search for knowledge?

Read the thread. The answer is there.

[nola000]

Re: Noob query. Help!

I read the forum link about SMAT and DAT differences but it said nothing about #83, #82 and #5. Are those products SMAT or DAT? Can I safely assume that they are DAT since it said somewhere in the forum that "all the rest are DAT"? The back of some products mention that they are DAT, the ones that dont I just figured are regular single stage abrasives.

[akimel]

Re: Noob query. Help!

As stated in Mike Pennington's comment in that thread, all of Meguiar's professional line polishes are diminishing abrasives, except D151, M86, M105 (and M205, which was released after this thread); hence, M82 and M83 are DAT polishes. M05 is a pure polish and does not contain abrasives.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Noob query. Help!

So is #83, #82 and #5 SMAT or DAT?

All the Meguiars guys on this forum really seem to push the consumer line. Why no love for the pro. stuff? Is Meguiars afraid us rookies arent going to work it properly. Like I already did. I dont want a fool-proof product just because Im a fool. I would rather yall "un-fool" me and teach me how to be a pro so I can use the stuff the big boys use.

#83, #82, #5 and even #80, #9, #85 are diminishing abrasive products. Only M105, M205, M86 and to some degree M95 are SMAT.

Don't fall into thinking there's anything "inferior" about the consumer line, especially when talking about SwirlX and Ultimate Compound - they make use of the same SMAT technology found in M105, the big dog of 'em all. But M105 was designed to be used with a wool pad to remove 1500 grit sanding marks. That's pretty darn potent stuff! A lot of people found it left a beautiful finish when used with a G110 or similar D/A just to remove cobweb type swirls. Yes, it does, and this is primarily due to the SMAT technology of the abrasives. But the reality is, we jumped our "cut scale" from a maximum of 10 to a max of 12 to accommodate this product. When you consider that most people were having great success removing cobweb type swirls with M80, which has a cut of only 4, why on earth would you need to suddenly jump to something with a 12 cut to do the same thing?

So along comes the new consumer products, SwirlX, ScratchX 2.0 and Ultimate Compound, and we're giving you more cut than M83 but with the extra clarity of finish provided by SMAT. Then we put a $10 price tag on it, got it on the shelf at Wal-Mart, and now everyone can very easily obtain it, afford it, and get stunning results with it. On a modern clear coat finish, especially a hard clear coat, it's a better choice than many of the lighter cutting pro products. Big difference from a body shop point of view: these consumer products are not body shop safe. Those guys have no choice. But for the weekend warrior or hard core enthusiast detailer, body shop safe means nothing. Ease of use, long buffing cyles, availability, price, effectiveness - it's a win, win, win, win, win proposition.

It's not that we have no love for our pro line (Jason Rose, if you're reading this - Go Pro or Go Home! inside joke, sorry) it's just that we've made it easier to get that "pro finish" by porting down SMAT technology to the new consumer products.

We'll give you props though - as a self avowed Noob at least you didn't just jump right in with the most aggressive product mix you could find, and then use them as aggressively as possible. Incorrect technique with a mild approach only means you didn't get the results you were looking for. Incorrect technique with an overly aggressive mix of products can lead to real problems. Good for you!

Now let's see you step up your game just a bit with a product mix that should get you the results you're looking for.

[RamAirV1]

Re: Noob query. Help!

It should be pointed out that #5 is a pure polish not a paint cleaner or swirl remover. It is intended for use in humid areas where #7 is more difficult to work with. It's purpose is to add polishing oils to the paint, not remove swirls.

RamAirV1

[nola000]

Re: Noob query. Help!

Darn you Stoops! You've convinced me to "stoop" to a level more befitting my skill, DIY. I guess Ultimate Compound it is.

Would I be ok going, Ulimate Compound(8006 pad), #82(8006 pad), #5(9006 pad), and then #26?

Im still wondering where Ultimate Compound falls on that 10 point, I mean, 12 point scale.

#82 is 3 on the scale and I already bought it so I have to use it. ScratchX is a 4 on the scale so I wont be using that. I guess I would need something thats on the 5 to 6 level. Right? Wrong?

M. Stoops - "So along comes the new consumer products, SwirlX, ScratchX 2.0 and Ultimate Compound, and we're giving you more cut than M83 but with the extra clarity of finish provided by SMAT."

I guess I figure I dont need something that starts with the cut I need and is going to end up finishing so well that I can go straight to waxing, since Im doing a multistep process anyway. I figure that there is some kind of tradeoff when using one "wonder" product that "does it all" as opposed to using 2 or 3 true non-diminishing abrasives to acheive the same thing. Sure using that "wonder" product saves you time and money, but at what cost compared to a classic multi-step down detailing job?

Just trying to spark debate and scientific exchange for the selfish benefit of my own advancement of my noobish detailing skills.


Almost forgot... What exactly does "these consumer products are not body shop safe." mean?