Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

[SoCalNewb]

Hey everyone. My wife's Black 2006 Acura RL has water etching, and I want to get your expertise on how to best fix it.

I have read numerous threads on Mequiar's online about how to treat water etching, bird **** etching, and other etching problems. Mike referenced THIS THREAD in response to another etching question, and I wanted to start this new thread to open up discussion about compound (i.e. M105 or Ultimate Compound) vs Acid Wash treatments.

I came across the acid wash option by accident: I called a local detail supply retailer that carries Mequiar's products, and the owner asked what I was working on. I told him I was going to use a DA (Flex 3401) to remove water etching, and I wanted to know if he had M105 or Ultimate Compound in stock. The owner of the shop said that since water etching is just mineral remnants from water impurities, that using a DA with abrasives (M105 or UC) would only heat up and bake on these impurities.

He recommended using an acidic wash to remove the etching, or to have a pro do it since the chemicals are pretty harsh. After not finding any threads on Mequiar's about acid wash, I did a quick Google search and came across THIS LINK, which argues that you should not compound, buff, or clay etching. This article argues that you should use an acid wash to remove the etching, then use an alkaline neutralizer to make sure the acid wash does not eat away your paint.

QUESTION: Is this acid wash recommendation good advice, or is compounding still the way to go?

ps no pictures as the digicam died last week :-( If anyone happened to be at last week's Thursday Night Garage, this is the same Black Acura RL.

[Andrew C.]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

Go with the 105, I have never heard of anyone acid washing to get water spots off of their car. Use the LEAST aggressive method possible first. I honestly don't think acid washing your car would be that good of an idea.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

The acid wash works if it is in fact a deposit on the surface and not an etching in the paint.

The acid used is dangerous to touch with your skin and in most cases only needs to be wiped over the paint and then any residue wiped off afterwards.

I'm not sure of any local detailers that do this, maybe Joe?

[SoCalNewb]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

The acid wash works if it is in fact a deposit on the surface and not an etching in the paint.

> Got it. If I can borrow a friend's camera to take pictures with a macro lens, would that make it possible for you to assess whether the marks are deposits or etching?

I'm not sure of any local detailers that do this, maybe Joe?

> Call me newb, but I don't yet know who Joe is. What is his forum screen name?

Thanks guys for your continued input on this.

[Andrew C.]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

Listen to Mike not me haha, it just sounded dangerous at first.

And I believe Joe is SuperiorShine here at MOL

[SoCalNewb]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

Thanks andrewc for giving me Superior Shine's handle. I just PM'ed him to see if this is something he has an interest in working on.

[SoCalNewb]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

Mike - you saw the water etching (or deposits?) on the trunk of our black Acura last Thursday. Do you think it was water etching or contaminant deposits?

[Tom Weed]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

This is my take on it, and as Mike has pointed out, if it hasn't already etched itself in the paint. I went to a Buffalo Wild Wings one afternoon on a weekend, came back out to my car and they had turned on the sprinklers to water the bushes along with my car. When I got home, I washed my car with regular car washing soap to no avail. I still had the spots.

I started doing some reading on the net about it and the following day, I decided to give my car a white vinegar bath, I figured it couldn't hurt to do this and at most I would just have to rewax it. I can't remember the dilution ratio I used, (the website mentioned says 1 part vinegar to 4 parts water). This worked, I took my time doing one panel at a time, making sure it was removing them. I then rewashed it using car wash soap and then rewaxed my car.

I've also had people drop off cars to me with water spots and the vinegar wouldnt' touch them, like it's already etched into the clear. I know our water here isn't nearly as hard here as it is in some parts, so it may or may not work for you. For the time it takes, it maybe worth washing or wiping down a a panel with it and seeing if it makes any difference.

[SoCalNewb]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

This is my take on it, and as Mike has pointed out, if it hasn't already etched itself in the paint. I went to a Buffalo Wild Wings one afternoon on a weekend, came back out to my car and they had turned on the sprinklers to water the bushes along with my car. When I got home, I washed my car with regular car washing soap to no avail. I still had the spots.

I started doing some reading on the net about it and the following day, I decided to give my car a white vinegar bath, I figured it couldn't hurt to do this and at most I would just have to rewax it. I can't remember the dilution ratio I used, (the website mentioned says 1 part vinegar to 4 parts water). This worked, I took my time doing one panel at a time, making sure it was removing them. I then rewashed it using car wash soap and then rewaxed my car.

I've also had people drop off cars to me with water spots and the vinegar wouldnt' touch them, like it's already etched into the clear. I know our water here isn't nearly as hard here as it is in some parts, so it may or may not work for you. For the time it takes, it maybe worth washing or wiping down a a panel with it and seeing if it makes any difference.

Tom - much thanks for that info. We bought the car as a Certified Pre-Owned from Acura (awesome 100k comprehensive warranty), but I'm not sure if the original owner lived in SoCal, or somewhere with harder water. Looking at the water spots they don't look like fresh ones, they look pretty well baked in.

Not sure if you saw the 2nd thread I referenced on the original post (HERE), but one of the treatments suggested was white venegar: "White vinegar. Another way to get rid of water spots is to make a weak solution of one part of white vinegar to four parts of water. It will take a while before you can completely wipe off the water spots with the acid solution. If you don't have the patience to carefully remove the water spots, you can use a cotton ball soaked in white vinegar to dissolve the mineral bonds one spot at a time."

Before your post I wasn't sure if vinegar was a safe suggestion since it was from a random website, but now that you confirmed it worked for you I'll give it a shot. Thanks man!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

Mike - you saw the water etching (or deposits?) on the trunk of our black Acura last Thursday. Do you think it was water etching or contaminant deposits?

If I remember correctly, it was the Type II Water Spots, that is they were etchings.

Maybe bring it to the next Thursday Night Open Garage Class and we'll work on it?

Do try the vinegar idea though as a means of hopefully a remedy but if not then a matter of troubleshooting as you work towards a solution.

[Tom Weed]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

Tom - much thanks for that info. We bought the car as a Certified Pre-Owned from Acura (awesome 100k comprehensive warranty), but I'm not sure if the original owner lived in SoCal, or somewhere with harder water. Looking at the water spots they don't look like fresh ones, they look pretty well baked in.

Not sure if you saw the 2nd thread I referenced on the original post (HERE), but one of the treatments suggested was white venegar: "White vinegar. Another way to get rid of water spots is to make a weak solution of one part of white vinegar to four parts of water. It will take a while before you can completely wipe off the water spots with the acid solution. If you don't have the patience to carefully remove the water spots, you can use a cotton ball soaked in white vinegar to dissolve the mineral bonds one spot at a time."

Before your post I wasn't sure if vinegar was a safe suggestion since it was from a random website, but now that you confirmed it worked for you I'll give it a shot. Thanks man!

One thing, my water spots were not very old, and if yours were "baked" in as you put it, this may not work, but it's worth a try. I'd also take Mike Phillips up on his offer at the open garage class if at all possible, that's going to be the best help and advice I think you can obtain.

Cheers,

[SoCalNewb]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

Yeah Tom I'll give the vinegar a shot, and if that doesn't do it I'll drop by Thursday Night Open Garage.

[nyjz1298]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

How'd this turn out. I have acid etching and wondering what it might take. What products I should order etc.

[SoCalNewb]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

How'd this turn out. I have acid etching and wondering what it might take. What products I should order etc.

I wasn't able to make it to last Thursday's Open Garage Night, but I did make some progress on the paint etching marks. My main concern is that I'm a new with my DA, and I want to make sure I don't take off too much clear coat in removing the water spot etching. To that end, I am working on 1 test section, and taking it really slow, and starting with the least abrasive method and going progressively more abrasive. Here's the steps I took:

1) White LC Pad (light cut pad) with 3rd party product I have that is lightly abrasive (Z-PC).
- Flex 3401 on 3 (minimal results).
- Flex 3401 on 6 (minimal results).
- Results: minimal improvement.

2) Orange LC Pad (moderate cutting pad) with Z-PC.
- Flex 3401 on 3 (minimal results).
- Flex 3401 on 6 (minimal results).
- Results: minimal improvement.

3) White LC Pad with Mequiar's M83 and Flex 3401.
- Flex 3401 on 3: removed many of swirl marks, left etching.
- Flex 3401 on 6: not much different.
- Results: modest improvement
.
4) Orange LC Pad with Mequiar's M83
- Flex 3401 on 3: removed remaining swirl marks and elimated some etching completely, reduced appearance of the remaining etching.
- Flex 3401 on 6: removed about 50% of visible etching and further reduced appearance of remaining etching.
- Results: good improvement, etching still visible in bright overhead lighting.

That's as far as I have gotten at the moment. I did order some M105 and M205 and will give the SMAT combo a shot. I know from HERE that M83 is just a *little* more abrasive than M205, and M83 is much less abrasive than M105. Because M105 is very abrasive and is non-diminishing (M83 is an diminishing abrasive), I want to get some professional opinions about the remaining clear coat (just to be safe), so I am going to try to drop by tomorrow's Thursday Night Open Garage at Mequiar's in Irvine.

Mike - does Meguair's have a PTG (paint thickness gauge) on site that we can use to determine the thickness of the paint, and the thickness of the clear coat specifically?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Fixing Water Etching: M105/UC or Acid Wash?

Mike - does Meguiar's have a PTG (paint thickness gauge) on site that we can use to determine the thickness of the paint, and the thickness of the clear coat specifically?

We have a PTG but it only measures total film-build.

At some point you just have to make a decision to Go or No-Go


Bring it on down and we'll take another look at it.