Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

[hillcgolfer]

Over on another detailing site, I saw a quote by Meguiar's highly respected expert Jason Rose (someone else was quoting him)...."a paint loaded up with durable polymers will definitely throw off subsequent compound and polish performance....and...some of these products like Meguiar's UQD, M135 Synthetic Spray Detailer, NXT Tech Wax 2.0, or M21 Synthetic Sealent 2.0 can have a lasting impact on a paint finish....to the extent of throwing off the performance of compounds and polishes in subsequent applications".

Well now, because these and other polymers are likely going to be on any number of paint finishes we may come into contact with (and wish to do some compounding/polishing on)....can someone suggest the BEST CLEANING AGENTS to use ...prior to going into the compounding/polishing (and possibly wet sanding) series of steps....in order to allow them to do their jobs the best?

I realize that though we may never get ALL of them (polymers) out....perhaps we could strive to get the majority of them out.

[Carfire]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

If you want you can use clay.
But if you are going to polish it seems dumb to clay or remove them, because if the polish can go through clear coat or oxidized paint it can get through the polymers.

[tguil]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Over on another detailing site, I saw a quote by Meguiar's highly respected expert Jason Rose (someone else was quoting him)...."a paint loaded up with durable polymers will definitely throw off subsequent compound and polish performance....and...some of these products like Meguiar's UQD, M135 Synthetic Spray Detailer, NXT Tech Wax 2.0, or M21 Synthetic Sealent 2.0 can have a lasting impact on a paint finish....to the extent of throwing off the performance of compounds and polishes in subsequent applications".

I don't think so, but I think that Mike had better respond to this question.

Tom

[roushstage2]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Over on another detailing site, I saw a quote by Meguiar's highly respected expert Jason Rose (someone else was quoting him)...."a paint loaded up with durable polymers will definitely throw off subsequent compound and polish performance....and...some of these products like Meguiar's UQD, M135 Synthetic Spray Detailer, NXT Tech Wax 2.0, or M21 Synthetic Sealent 2.0 can have a lasting impact on a paint finish....to the extent of throwing off the performance of compounds and polishes in subsequent applications".

Well now, because these and other polymers are likely going to be on any number of paint finishes we may come into contact with (and wish to do some compounding/polishing on)....can someone suggest the BEST CLEANING AGENTS to use ...prior to going into the compounding/polishing (and possibly wet sanding) series of steps....in order to allow them to do their jobs the best?

I realize that though we may never get ALL of them (polymers) out....perhaps we could strive to get the majority of them out.

Between claying and cleaning (chemically), the paint should be completely fresh. I'm not sure how a wax or a product like UQD could prevent compounds from working properly either? Almost seems to be a mis-quote?

If you want you can use clay.
But if you are going to polish it seems dumb to clay or remove them, because if the polish can go through clear coat or oxidized paint it can get through the polymers.

Being a quote from someone at Meguiar's, you have to take in to account how they use the words. Polishing is not used so loosly as to describe anything besides waxing.

[yalerd]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

The main topic on this was because of an issue on defects returning when you already had polished the finish so Jason Rose and Kevin Brown helped cleared things up.

Here is the thread,

A new perspective on paint defect return (interesting)

Be sure to read Kevin Brown post on page 2 (link)

[hillcgolfer]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Between claying and cleaning (chemically), the paint should be completely fresh. I'm not sure how a wax or a product like UQD could prevent compounds from working properly either? Almost seems to be a mis-quote?

Being a quote from someone at Meguiar's, you have to take in to account how they use the words. Polishing is not used so loosly as to describe anything besides waxing.

Even tho I'm an old rodder, I'm fairly new at using so many different products to bring out the best in my car's paint....and have been working alot lately with Mike P. ....and others on here, to put together a set of "tools" to begin salvaging my old rod's finish.

I'm sure the experienced detailers probably know this but my main point in starting this thread was (after seeing the above words talking about "things" being on the paint that could hamper the compounds, etc) is: What are the best things to use in CLEANING off the paint (of wax and other polymers buildup)...prior to beginning the process of wet sanding/compounding/buffing (or just compounding/polishing)?

For example, I have a mild clay kit so....would going over the surface with that and then alcohol wipe-down be adequate in most cases?....or, stronger solvents needed?

I may have made this sound too complicated....basically it's just a CLEANING question. I never gave it much thought until I saw that quote (or mis-quote...whichever it is)....and that started me thinking about what cleaning agents I might need to get.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Over on another detailing site, I saw a quote by Meguiar's highly respected expert Jason Rose

I've sent the link to this thread to Jason so he can read everything and then have the opportunity to clarify any confusion and answer any related questions...

Thanks!

[akimel]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Silicone! It almost has mythic status on internet detailing forums. As we know, there is good silicione and there is bad silicone. Body shop painters have to worry about silicone; but until recently detailers haven't worried about it--but now some do.

There are some respected detailers who believe, based on their experience and conversations with others, that we need to chemically clean the paint surface before the polishing step. Why? Because silicone, or at least some silicone, is resistant to removal through abrasion. If the silicone is not removed, it may interfere with or inhibit the polishing. Many believe that "sticky paint" can be attributed to silicone. Read through, e.g., this Autopia thread. In this thread Rydawg, an experienced and respected detailer, recommends that the paint surface be cleaned with alcohol (full strength) immediately before polishing. Others use products like Prep-Sol, Pre-Kleano, Prep-All, or Hi-Temp Prep Wash.

I have no idea if we need to be concerned about silicone. I use silicone-packed quick detailers, just like the next guy. If I clay with Last Touch or Quik Detailer, will I "throw off" the performance of my polishes? I imagine that professional elite detailers may need to worry more about all of this than a person like me. No one is paying me to polish their Ferrari to perfection. I just want to make my Luthien look better.

I wish we had a knowledgeable chemist on MOL, or any of the other forums, who could explain to us the truth about silicone. I'm willing to add an IPA wipedown or whatever before polishing IF it can be demonstrated to be optimal practice. Until then, I'm just not going to worry about silicone.

[tguil]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Oh heck, Let's just go back to the "good old days": Meguiar's #2, #3, #9 and #7 topped with #16. It worked (and very well indeed) for me

Tom

[mb911]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

maybe this is why I have a had time removing defects!

[hillcgolfer]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Oh heck, Let's just go back to the "good old days": Meguiar's #2, #3, #9 and #7 topped with #16. It worked (and very well indeed) for me

Tom

Yeah, I'm all for keeping it as simple as possible.

[Jason Rose]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

I've sent the link to this thread to Jason so he can read everything and then have the opportunity to clarify any confusion and answer any related questions...

Thanks!

Thanks Mike for making me aware of this dialog.

Detailers don't need to be worried about silicones and polymers, but simply aware of their potential impact while machine polishing on paint.

15 years ago, myself and other detailers didn't think at all about what might still be on the paint prior to detailing a car. If we were polishing on a car that hadn't seen any work for 3-6 months or more...we were confident there was nothing on that paint. Because back then, despite all the marketing hype, there were very few products that would hang on paint for more than 6 months (given the average environmental exposure and washing most cars go through.)

But today, with the advancement of high tech silicones and cross linking polymers in wax/protectant products and spray detailers...some of this stuff can hang on a paint for a much longer period of time.

To clear up any confusion, I'll say this as simply as I can (but please realize there are exceptions that I wont go into right now)

Two things;
One, spray detailers with high tech silicones and polymers will slow down defect removal if you are using them in the preparatory or early steps of defect removal. This means while cleaning panels or priming pads prior to using a compound or cleaner/polish. Meguiar's pioneered the spray detailer category with M34 Final Inspection, and this product remains our best recommnedation for cleaning panels and priming pads just prior to machine compounding or polishing. M34 contains no silicones or polymers.

Two, having said that...will spray detailers or waxes containing silicone or polymers prevent defect removal? Do we need to do an IPA wipe down everytime, everystep, on every car? Absolutely not. That's over kill. The impact is this...depending on how recent the protactant product was applied, you may only get 90% defect removal instead of 100% defect removal on your first application of compound. You might need to give it an extra couple passes with the machine, or another application, to get all the defects out. Compounds and cleaner/polishes will definately cut through the protective properties. It simply means they need to cut through the protection before it starts cutting through paint defects.

The variables at play in this scenario will make your head spin. Thus, the only accurate way to determine if (and how much) something durable on the paint is slowing down your defect removal is to do a dual test spot on the paint. Strip the paint with IPA on one side, leave the other as is. Apply your compound or cleaner/polish on both sides equally. If you notice a significant difference in the application, buffing cycle, or defect removal...then you know you have something impacting you.

But most cars will not need an IPA wipe down becuase in most cases your impact of silicones and polymers will be minimal, or none at all.

The thing to be mindful of, is using these type products in early steps within your polishing process. Or if you are working on a car that you know gets frequent applications of waxes and spray detailers...you might have stuff on the paint working against your defect removal.

What if you know nothing about the car or what might be on the paint? Start your defect removal process, and if defects are coming out very slow...this could be one or several possible reasons (others could be the paint is hard, your process is not aggressive enough, etc.) But if your defect removal is going along fine, no reason to worry about what might be on the paint prior.

Hope this helps?

[hillcgolfer]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Thanks Mike for making me aware of this dialog.

Detailers don't need to be worried about silicones and polymers, but simply aware of their potential impact while machine polishing on paint.

15 years ago, myself and other detailers didn't think at all about what might still be on the paint prior to detailing a car. If we were polishing on a car that hadn't seen any work for 3-6 months or more...we were confident there was nothing on that paint. Because back then, despite all the marketing hype, there were very few products that would hang on paint for more than 6 months (given the average environmental exposure and washing most cars go through.)

But today, with the advancement of high tech silicones and cross linking polymers in wax/protectant products and spray detailers...some of this stuff can hang on a paint for a much longer period of time.

To clear up any confusion, I'll say this as simply as I can (but please realize there are exceptions that I wont go into right now)

Two things;
One, spray detailers with high tech silicones and polymers will slow down defect removal if you are using them in the preparatory or early steps of defect removal. This means while cleaning panels or priming pads prior to using a compound or cleaner/polish. Meguiar's pioneered the spray detailer category with M34 Final Inspection, and this product remains our best recommnedation for cleaning panels and priming pads just prior to machine compounding or polishing. M34 contains no silicones or polymers.

Two, having said that...will spray detailers or waxes containing silicone or polymers prevent defect removal? Do we need to do an IPA wipe down everytime, everystep, on every car? Absolutely not. That's over kill. The impact is this...depending on how recent the protactant product was applied, you may only get 90% defect removal instead of 100% defect removal on your first application of compound. You might need to give it an extra couple passes with the machine, or another application, to get all the defects out. Compounds and cleaner/polishes will definately cut through the protective properties. It simply means they need to cut through the protection before it starts cutting through paint defects.

The variables at play in this scenario will make your head spin. Thus, the only accurate way to determine if (and how much) something durable on the paint is slowing down your defect removal is to do a dual test spot on the paint. Strip the paint with IPA on one side, leave the other as is. Apply your compound or cleaner/polish on both sides equally. If you notice a significant difference in the application, buffing cycle, or defect removal...then you know you have something impacting you.

But most cars will not need an IPA wipe down becuase in most cases your impact of silicones and polymers will be minimal, or none at all.

The thing to be mindful of, is using these type products in early steps within your polishing process. Or if you are working on a car that you know gets frequent applications of waxes and spray detailers...you might have stuff on the paint working against your defect removal.

What if you know nothing about the car or what might be on the paint? Start your defect removal process, and if defects are coming out very slow...this could be one or several possible reasons (others could be the paint is hard, your process is not aggressive enough, etc.) But if your defect removal is going along fine, no reason to worry about what might be on the paint prior.

Hope this helps?

This helps a bunch Jason. Being a newbie, I was basically asking if I needed to clean off old wax buildup, etc , prior to starting anything else....and your answer is very thorough on that. Also, this will make me careful not to introduce any of these types of products...early on in the process of buffing/polishing.

Thanks again!

[akimel]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing

Thanks, Jason. Your response is very helpful.

Follow-up question: For optimal results, do you recommend Final Inspection as a preferred claying lubricant? Or does it really matter? Many of us use Quik Detailer and Last Touch as our preferred lubricants.

[yalerd]

Re: Cleaning off "Durable Polymers" before detailing


Awesome, helped clear even more!