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  • #1

    "Filler" Questions

    Picked up my GF's black Infiniti QX4 from the dealer's body shop the other day after they repaired a parking lot sideswipe ($3700!). They did a very nice job on the paint and body work and it came back clean and shiny inside and out with no holgrams. Looked about as good as a 6 year old daily driven mobile office/kid hauler can. Until, several washes later the buffer trails showed up. Very fine trails/holograms over the whole car, old and new paint. Not really that big a deal as I had planned on doing the polish and wax program anyway after the new paint had cured for a while. Should polish out with no problem and they may have even saved me a step as most of the previously existing heavier swirls are gone.

    But I am curious: what kind of product(s) do body shops use to conceal very fine swirls/trails/holograms? What ever it was, it was very effective in producing a nice finish, albeit by hiding rather than removing very fine surface defects, it just didn't last very long.

    Another question: Are "fillers" as bad as they as they are depicted on most detailing forums? After achieving the desired finish by abrasive polishing, would it not be advantageous in terms of paint longevity on a daily driver to maintain the finish by hiding small defects rather than by constantly abrading the paint back down to the lowest low?

    BTW this is in no way intended to start a filler war, wax war, or any other war. I'm just interested in learning more about paint finishing and maintenance.
    I saw it on the Internet...it must be true!
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: "Filler" Questions

    Originally posted by ShinyChevy View Post
    Picked up my GF's black Infiniti QX4 from the dealer's body shop the other day after they repaired a parking lot sideswipe ($3700!). They did a very nice job on the paint and body work and it came back clean and shiny inside and out with no holgrams. Looked about as good as a 6 year old daily driven mobile office/kid hauler can.

    Until, several washes later the buffer trails showed up.

    Very fine trails/holograms over the whole car, old and new paint. Not really that big a deal as I had planned on doing the polish and wax program anyway after the new paint had cured for a while. Should polish out with no problem and they may have even saved me a step as most of the previously existing heavier swirls are gone.

    But I am curious: what kind of product(s) do body shops use to conceal very fine swirls/trails/holograms? What ever it was, it was very effective in producing a nice finish, albeit by hiding rather than removing very fine surface defects, it just didn't last very long.
    Probably the two most mis-used products, (note I wrote mis-used), are 3M Imperial Hand Glaze and M07 Show Car Glaze.

    Both of these products are commonly mis-used by body shops to fill-in or mask swirls left by the rotary buffer procedures so customers will accept their cars after the work is done.

    Then like you observed, after a few washes these products wash off and the swirls are revealed to our eyes.

    Part of the problem with body shops is they don't invest the time into doing a professional buff-out on the paint jobs they spray, they usually cut the paint with a wool pad and a cutting compound and the re-polish the paint with a less aggressive product and less aggressive pad, (if you're lucky), and that's it and in most cases this isn't enough to leave a swirl free finish.

    Part of the problem is the customer doesn't pay for more time, labor and materials to make it worth the body shop to have the "Painter's Helper" spend more time and do and extra step like re-polish the paint using a DA Polisher after the second rotary buffer step to remove the swirls.

    So it's a deeper problem than most people understand.

    But to your question, body shop safe products tend to be water soluble products, so no... they're not going to last when exposed to water either from washing your car or even inclement weather. That's not they're job, that's the job of a car wax which isn't recommended by paint manufactures till after a waiting period of at least 30 days.


    Originally posted by ShinyChevy View Post

    Another question: Are "fillers" as bad as they as they are depicted on most detailing forums?
    Most of the time that's just a case of people not understanding how the polishing process works and/or parroting information they've read on one forum by regurgitating it onto another forum.

    Here are a couple of threads on this topic for your reading enjoyment....

    Question about #80 - Does it contain heavy fillers?


    And this one...
    Paint Needs to Breathe

    Mike Phillips
    760-515-0444
    showcargarage@gmail.com
    "Find something you like and use it often"

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: "Filler" Questions

      Fillers are commonplace in many detailing products. It is used (especially in AIO products) that are designed to save time and effort (especially in high volume applications like a busy body shop). Personally, I do not find anything particularly "wrong" with fillers as long as I know that it is a shortcut to a proper paint preparation. Fillers in polishes/glazes help in achieving a nice smooth defect free (to the eye) surface prior to applying a quality wax/sealant. I use similiar products that "hide" the defects as my commuter car is approaching 150k and is 8 years old (came with factory single stage paint that has been reduced in depth by years of improper car care prior to me owning the vehicle)

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: "Filler" Questions

        The problem is in part with the word itself

        What people forget is polishing paint is in part an art form, not just a mechanical process, it requires the human elements of care and passion and the right products.

        When you're abrading paint you want to lubricate the surface at the same time, which is more slippery water or some time of lubricating oil?

        If you vote for water, then remove the oil from your car's engine and use water instead.

        So you have all these people on other forums posting their 'opinion' on fillers but they leave out the reality of what's taking place on the surface as though you could just rub sand over paint and make it look good which we know is not the case.

        When you abrade paint you want to do it in a way that accomplishes 2 things, one is the goal, (remove defects), and two is you leave the paint looking great, (that's in part accomplished with some kind of buffering lubricant).

        That's 2 things... not 1 thing... That's part of the equation that the people that post only one side of the equation about fillers leave out and then the other people on those forums don't pick up on and call them on it.


        Mike Phillips
        760-515-0444
        showcargarage@gmail.com
        "Find something you like and use it often"

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: "Filler" Questions

          I am not knowledgeable about this subject, but I had to comment about something.


          "BTW this is in no way intended to start a filler war, wax war, or any other war. I'm just interested in learning more about paint finishing and maintenance."

          This forum's members are ridiculously peaceful, don't worry about asking questions. If MOL was in charge of the world, there would NEVER be wars, only fights over the best LSP!

          I hope you'll find the answer you were looking for

          -Nick
          Luck is probability taken personally!

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: "Filler" Questions

            Originally posted by Mike Phillips View Post
            Part of the problem with body shops is they don't invest the time into doing a professional buff-out on the paint jobs they spray, they usually cut the paint with a wool pad and a cutting compound and the re-polish the paint with a less aggressive product and less aggressive pad, (if you're lucky), and that's it and in most cases this isn't enough to leave a swirl free finish.

            Part of the problem is the customer doesn't pay for more time, labor and materials to make it worth the body shop to have the "Painter's Helper" spend more time and do and extra step like re-polish the paint using a DA Polisher after the second rotary buffer step to remove the swirls.

            So it's a deeper problem than most people understand.
            Well said, Mike. Production shops (for the most part) put out the best work they can within a pricing structure which is set by insurance compaines who, after all, pay for most of the paint and body work. Finishing work is very time intensive as we all know and time costs money. Shops are under a lot of pressure to keep costs down and still put out an acceptable level of quality . What is acceptable to insurance companies and the majority of customers and what is acceptable to enthusiasts can be two different things.

            I certainly did not mean to slam the shop I took the QX4 to. They are an above average production shop and have lots of happy customers, including me. But they are not a custom shop. I do know the difference and set my expectations accordingly.

            Thanks for the info, keep it comming!
            I saw it on the Internet...it must be true!

            Comment

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