M80 VS High Price Competitor

[3Fitty]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

My example would be to compare Zaino to NXT. In terms of looks, it will always come down to the owner. IMO, both products look great initially and the look is very close (as are most LSP's on perfectly prepped paint, IMO). However 3 weeks out (in my experience in the Florida climate) NXT looks very flat and dead compared to Zaino, it is not even close. Zaino will retain its initial look for atleast 3-4 months, and IME, as much as 6 months.

I certainly think that thiis is fair as nobody can contest your personal experience. I guess I just have not seen the same things you have seen.

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

I agree wholeheartedly with the phenomena that when someone pays big bucks for something, they expect more and typically will "see" more in it. People ALWAYS don't like to admit that they are wrong. To admit that they just paid twice, three times as much (and more in cases) for a product and got negligible improvements is just not in human nature.

Let's face it though, we as detailers do tend to take advantage of this fact in our services. Those who charge more for their services are looked at by the average customer as "better detailers" when guys who charge less are not necessarily less skilled and/or get less results from their work.

Bussinesses exist to profit. Just like their is a price point in the selection of pricing a product, their should be a price point in the selection of pricing a service. There is no set standard in detailing, no licensing or requirments. Everybody is a detailer if they want to be, so if the best in the bussiness are not charging top dollar, then they are doing everybody else a disservice, IMO.

On a side note, what did you think of Faber vs. Pulver?

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Please allow me to throw in some food for thought on the subject of durability and that is looking at things from street logic bottom line perspective:

If product A looks better than product B with half of durability of product B (say 3 months instead of 6) but at quarter of the cost doesn't that mean at the end of the year I had equal protection (year round) and better looks at half of the cost from product A than I would with product B can we say product A is much better deal for me?

If yes why would I want to go for product B? What is the incentive?

In your example you don't include human nature. Most people will pay double the money if they only have to do it half the times.

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

To be honest, I really don't know what that means but I hear it a lot from Zaino users (in fact I read a lot of interesting things from Zaino users).

One of my personal favorites is: "well Zaino may not look as good as NXT, but it is way more durable".

So, let me get this straight... if I use NXT, wax my car regularly (something I love to do anyway), I will get long term lasting protection that looks better than Zaino? Why would that make me want to run out and get Zaino?

You see, I'm not a novice at this stuff (not a pro by any stretch) but I've been detailing for about 17 years and I've tried Zaino and a guy on my street lives by it. To be honest, I think it looks pretty good but I don't think it looks better than NXT 2.0 (but certainly costs WAY more and is MUCH harder to get - especially when you live in NJ).

I think where you get it wrong is that I don't think you are fully accepting the mentality of marketing and getting the proper "price point". You can bet your bottom dollar that even Meg's did it when coming out with NXT 2.0. They had to get the right price that would scare off the OTC consumer and the keep it high enough that the enthusiast (like me) would think..."oh this must be good".
With products like Zaino, Poorboys, Klasse and P21's they *must* keep the prices high for two reasons: 1) they probably don't have the economies of scale the Meg's has and 2) their customer base expects to pay a "premium price" for a "premium product". In step 2, *many* consumers become blindly faithful to the product based on how much it cost them.

I absolutely understand price points and marketing, it is what I went to college for. The price of a product is a result of supply and demand, and reaching the point on the bell curve where maximum profit is enjoyed. Of course in advanced marketing this bell curve is adjusted by the fact that the more product that is produced will lower the production cost, meaning it may be cheaper for the company to lower the price and sell more produce and more profit per bottle. Also, the price point has to reflect the product's intended use. For example, it could cost more to make Gold Glass (I don't know if it does and it doesn't matter) but it wouldn't make sense from a marketing stand point to sell the new and improved, latest techonogly wax for less the the current premium offering. It would give the impression of moving backwards. Personally, against any for 17 dollars on the shelf at Target, I would pick NXT. That is the precieved value.

Also, you are using personally preferance (stating that, in a factual tone, NXT looks better then Zaino) to justify your arguement. Many people feel each way about the different products. Many NXT users will tell NXT looks better, many Zaino users will tell you that Zaino looks better... Both parties are correct in the fact that they are saying what looks better to them (which is probably why they selected the particular product). Zaino is more difficult to use (its comprimse) but lasts for 4-5 times as much (Meguiars comprimise) IME.

Also, to get maximum performance of any LSP, proper prep is crutial. To make paint looks its best requires hours and hours of surface manipulation on a high speed polisher, claying, proper washing, etc, etc.. When you spend 8-10 hours prepparing your paint(FWIW, in some of my details we spend over 50), does is the extra 30 seconds it takes to mix a couple drops of an acclerator really that terrible, when you know the car will be protected for 6 months? This is my logic and while you might disagree, please respect it. I understand yours and respect your choice of product as well.

The large market doesn't care, nor do they want to invest the time and/or money, to properly preppare their paint. So the big profit is not in making speciality products that cater to less then 1% of the population but in making great products for other 99% and there is nothing wrong in doing so.

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

When you say compromises must be made....lets clarify....

Quality - No

Product launches - Yes

We are sitting on all kinds of ideas / products that we could bring to market, but we must obviously look at the big picture. In some cases it doesn't make sense. This could be due to several factors....Cost, timing, Government regulations, forecast to low just to name a few. I personally have seen us walk away several times from potential big business because we would have to drop the quality of our product(s) to fit the need....guess what...we said no thanks....

Again....we will never compromise quality....In fact, we use raw materials that are "higher quality" than the norm and in most cases, cost us more. If you look back in history, this has been our philosophy since the beginning, and this is what begins to seperate us from others...Quality has never been compromised.

In additon, while you are correct in saying there are target price points. Keep in mind, this goes for our "OTC" products as some call them, the "Pro" side of the business, Marine, OEM (car plants that use our product) just to name a few places where we sell product



Mike

I never meant to imply the quality of the ingredients is comprimised. However, Meguiars is a large company which caters to the needs of many markets. When the target audience is soley for the super enthusist, the products can be more focused and potentially out perform products that are a jack of all trades.

My example would be to compare Zaino to NXT. In terms of looks, it will always come down to the owner. IMO, both products look great initially and the look is very close (as are most LSP's on perfectly prepped paint, IMO). However 3 weeks out (in my experience in the Florida climate) NXT looks very flat and dead compared to Zaino, it is not even close. Zaino will retain its initial look for atleast 3-4 months, and IME, as much as 6 months.

So to compare the products based on durabilty in most people who have used the both products, would lean heavily in the favor of Zaino. Now the comprimise on the other side of the equation is that why NXT should (as all LSP's) be used on properly preppared paint, it has to look and work well on a wide variety of conditions. On the flipside, Zaino will tell you that if you paint is prepped to their standard their product will not work well. Different markets allow for different comprimises. IMO, it is foolish to compare the different products because of the different markets, except to illustrate the difference as how marketing affects product.

Personally, I feel that Meguiars easily makes the best OTC products and makes great professional and detailer grade products as well. The point is to only illustrate that it is possible for focused products intended for use on properly preppared paint to work better and longer then products that have to work on all paints.

[3Fitty]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

If yes why would I want to go for product B? What is the incentive?

Well, I would say there is no *logical* incentive, but as we both know, humans are not always logical. However, there still might be some perceived incentive...

1. The owner of product B may believe they are getting better protection.*

2. The owner of product B may take some satisfaction in saying "Oh, but I use product B" (as having some prestige value).

I mean... I don't agree with #2, but I know that I have even been guilty of this on occasion, so I know it exists.

The car detailing community is an interestin bunch. If I went to a given forum and proclaimed... "I just got this new wax that is harvested in Nepal and can only be applied with a special super slick applicator pad, costs $200 and is nearly impossible to get"... I'd have a whole line of people begging me to get them some. I think it is the nature of the beast.

[ZoranC]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

I agree wholeheartedly with the phenomena that when someone pays big bucks for something, they expect more and typically will "see" more in it. People ALWAYS don't like to admit that they are wrong. To admit that they just paid twice, three times as much (and more in cases) for a product and got negligible improvements is just not in human nature.

Let's face it though, we as detailers do tend to take advantage of this fact in our services. Those who charge more for their services are looked at by the average customer as "better detailers" when guys who charge less are not necessarily less skilled and/or get less results from their work.

Bingo!

[ZoranC]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Please allow me to throw in some food for thought on the subject of durability and that is looking at things from street logic bottom line perspective:

If product A looks better than product B with half of durability of product B (say 3 months instead of 6) but at quarter of the cost doesn't that mean at the end of the year I had equal protection (year round) and better looks at half of the cost from product A than I would with product B can we say product A is much better deal for me?

If yes why would I want to go for product B? What is the incentive?

[danponjican]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

I agree wholeheartedly with the phenomena that when someone pays big bucks for something, they expect more and typically will "see" more in it. People ALWAYS don't like to admit that they are wrong. To admit that they just paid twice, three times as much (and more in cases) for a product and got negligible improvements is just not in human nature.

Let's face it though, we as detailers do tend to take advantage of this fact in our services. Those who charge more for their services are looked at by the average customer as "better detailers" when guys who charge less are not necessarily less skilled and/or get less results from their work.

[Junebug]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

I forgot the latin phrase that means buyer beware - but it's true in most cases, especially products for detailing. Honestly, have you ever read the desciptions from some on-line retailers? Man, PT Barnum would be proud. But the one thing that brings many customers to Meguiars is consistancy. You can bet that it will do what it says it will. I like a lot of their products as well as 1Z, FK and Menzerna, will I ever setting on just one brand - I don't know, but I'm finding myself buying more Megs than anything else lately.

[Mike Pennington]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Personally I don't care how they formulate it I just care about the results

[Mike Phillips]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Lover? Love, maybe ... that's me all over

Just a case of typing too fast as I was trying to catch some things up on the forum and head out to DMV to transfer a title.

I always spell check everything but sometimes that doesn't help if you type the wrong word but the wrong word is spelled correctly.

I edited my original post so it now uses the correct word.

[Black Bart]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

TH0001

To expect NXT (or any brands OTC offerings) to compare against a speciality product like Zaino (at least in terms of durabilty) is unreasonable

You seem to be saying the high price of Zaino is why it has durability how do you explain the fact that Duragloss 105 cost $ 9.95 per bottle and it will outlast Zaino by a good margin

Anytime we discuss detailing products people will say this has fillers that has clay but I leave all that to the chemist.
Personally I don't care how they formulate it I just care about the results and when you compare M80 to other brands it out preforms them regardless of how much you paid for it.
If what makes it look good is oils then so be it that don't change the fact that it gets the job done and that is all that I care about..

[Orca]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Single stage paints lover #7 for a pure polish and lover M80 for a cleaner/polish.

Lover? Love, maybe ... that's me all over

The nearest I found to #80 is Einzsett Waxpolish Soft, but I still loaded #7 on top since the finish didn't feel as good as #80. #26 on top of that and the job is done. for my single stage paint, I love the #80/#7 ... #26 combo!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Just to chime in...

We love a spirited debate but let's all remember that were talking about car care products, (our passion), and lets keep this thread on the family friendly side.

As a reminder, here's a few of the Forum Rules that apply to all of us...

1. No personal attacks toward members or non-members will be tolerated.

2. No arguing with Moderators or Administrators.

3. You are welcome to disagree but you must be polite.

4. No bashing any company or their products. No bashing other people. If you can't say anything nice about someone, then don't say anything at all.

Thank you...