M80 VS High Price Competitor

[3Fitty]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

To expect NXT (or any brands OTC offerings) to compare against a speciality product like Zaino (at least in terms of durabilty) is unreasonable because of the different market each product is aimed at. Personally, I have never been too impressed with any Poor Boy's offerings except for the look of the Natty's waxes which unfortunately doesn't last long at all.

To be honest, I really don't know what that means but I hear it a lot from Zaino users (in fact I read a lot of interesting things from Zaino users).

One of my personal favorites is: "well Zaino may not look as good as NXT, but it is way more durable".

So, let me get this straight... if I use NXT, wax my car regularly (something I love to do anyway), I will get long term lasting protection that looks better than Zaino? Why would that make me want to run out and get Zaino?

You see, I'm not a novice at this stuff (not a pro by any stretch) but I've been detailing for about 17 years and I've tried Zaino and a guy on my street lives by it. To be honest, I think it looks pretty good but I don't think it looks better than NXT 2.0 (but certainly costs WAY more and is MUCH harder to get - especially when you live in NJ).

I think where you get it wrong is that I don't think you are fully accepting the mentality of marketing and getting the proper "price point". You can bet your bottom dollar that even Meg's did it when coming out with NXT 2.0. They had to get the right price that would scare off the OTC consumer and the keep it high enough that the enthusiast (like me) would think..."oh this must be good".

With products like Zaino, Poorboys, Klasse and P21's they *must* keep the prices high for two reasons: 1) they probably don't have the economies of scale the Meg's has and 2) their customer base expects to pay a "premium price" for a "premium product". In step 2, *many* consumers become blindly faithful to the product based on how much it cost them.

[Mike Pennington]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Some products which do not have to meet certain price points CAN be of higher quality then those typically sold over the counter. Meguiar's appeals to a wide spectrum of the market, and thus compromises must be made.

When you say compromises must be made....lets clarify....

Quality - No

Product launches - Yes

We are sitting on all kinds of ideas / products that we could bring to market, but we must obviously look at the big picture. In some cases it doesn't make sense. This could be due to several factors....Cost, timing, Government regulations, forecast to low just to name a few. I personally have seen us walk away several times from potential big business because we would have to drop the quality of our product(s) to fit the need....guess what...we said no thanks....

Again....we will never compromise quality....In fact, we use raw materials that are "higher quality" than the norm and in most cases, cost us more. If you look back in history, this has been our philosophy since the beginning, and this is what begins to seperate us from others...Quality has never been compromised.

In additon, while you are correct in saying there are target price points. Keep in mind, this goes for our "OTC" products as some call them, the "Pro" side of the business, Marine, OEM (car plants that use our product) just to name a few places where we sell product



Mike

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Unfortunately, you received some wrong information from someone here at Meguiars....

Lets us clarify....

M80 was not originally designed for use with a wool pad as a 2nd step in body shops....

It was designed originally for the detailing industry to be a 1st step cleaner / polish with any kind of paint needed to do the job (foam or wool). Then you could / would follow with any type of protection product....

It has transitioned primarily into being used as a 2nd step with a foam pad by all users. Body shops especially love it because it is a specialized product that also has paintable protection as you know. This helps protect / keep the paint looking good while it is curing....

Hope this helps.



Mike

Hey Mike, that is why I love the internet. It is nice to get first hand information regading products straight from the source, so I appericate you taking the time to respond. Here is a quote from the email I recieved about this

"Speed Glaze was originally designed for body shop enviroments as a final polishing step to protect and enhance the finish of fresh paint. We designed the product with the limitations of body shops in mind. The goal of most body shops is not to produce a show car swirl free finish, but rather a high gloss finish that will appear swirl free long enough to please the customer."

When I asked if this meant if the product "fills" I recieved this

"...remember that most body shops focus on speed, as time equals money. Speed Glaze was designed to meet the needs of this enivroment and will produce great results on the various wool pads common to these shops. For proven and long lasting results we always recommend using Meguiars pads in conjunction with our cleaners and polishes."

Honestly, I had not read that email in over a year so I was going on memory. Thanks again for clarifiying.

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Well, in my experience there is also something else at play (aside from products themselves). When a person spends a lot of money on a product, they have expectations for it to be better. This is not just true of car care products, but everything.

Over at the autopia forum you don't have to read too far to see this with almost every post. Many people equate the higher price of a product and the more difficulty in getting it, with quality. Those same people [wrongly] assume that since you can buy certain products over the counter, they *must* not be as good as the "hard to get, ultra expensive" items. What a flawed way of thinking.

My Poorboys Wheel Sealant experiment is living proof. I read countless stories over at autopia about how it was the silver bullet, the saving grace, the end all of wheel care. It was NO SUCH THING and is in fact, performed much worse than NXT 2.0 on my wheels.

So, while the example above might illustrate a difference in products, the way I see it is that *most* product manufacturers have a big problem with Meg's because they consistently put out top level products that are relatively easy to get at a consumer friendly price. Now, I'm not very religious, but that seems like the Holy Trinity to me!!!

Yes and no...

Some products which do not have to meat certain price points CAN be of higher quality then those typically sold over the counter. Meguiars appeals to a wide spectrum of the market, and thus compromises must be made. I have heard several people given conflicting (with in Meguiars) information about NXT series wax, for example. It has cleaners, it doesn't have cleaners..etc.

However it does have kalion clay, which can be defiened as a cleaner because it has very light mechanical action (though it is generally used as a filling agent). This comprimise has to be made because most consumers (most people that buy NXT have never heard of this board, unforuntately) do not understand the absolute importance of proper prep. They need something that will work on a daily driver and produce great results with minimal effort (which is the comprimise that most OTC products have to aim at).

To expect NXT (or any brands OTC offerings) to compare against a speciality product like Zaino (at least in terms of durabilty) is unreasonable because of the different market each product is aimed at. Personally, I have never been too impressed with any Poor Boy's offerings except for the look of the Natty's waxes which unfortunately doesn't last long at all.

On the other end of the price specturm, you have M105, which cost much more then most traditional compounds. However the performance of M105 is amazing, and IMO, delivers performance on par with the increase in price. So it is a two way street, but a lot of times people are more intrested in the price they pay vs. the product they get and this placebo effect can lead people into believing they are recieveing superior performance because they paid more.

[Mike Pennington]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Keep in mind that #80 was originally designed to finish paint to bodyshop quality using a wool pad

Unfortunately, you received some wrong information from someone here at Meguiars....

Lets us clarify....

M80 was not originally designed for use with a wool pad as a 2nd step in body shops....

It was designed originally for the detailing industry to be a 1st step cleaner / polish with any kind of paint needed to do the job (foam or wool). Then you could / would follow with any type of protection product....

It has transitioned primarily into being used as a 2nd step with a foam pad by all users. Body shops especially love it because it is a specialized product that also has paintable protection as you know. This helps protect / keep the paint looking good while it is curing....

Hope this helps.



Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Many people equate the higher price of a product and the more difficulty in getting it, with quality.


Those same people [wrongly] assume that since you can buy certain products over the counter, they *must* not be as good as the "hard to get, ultra expensive" items. What a flawed way of thinking.

Great insight.

[3Fitty]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Well, in my experience there is also something else at play (aside from products themselves). When a person spends a lot of money on a product, they have expectations for it to be better. This is not just true of car care products, but everything.

Over at the autopia forum you don't have to read too far to see this with almost every post. Many people equate the higher price of a product and the more difficulty in getting it, with quality. Those same people [wrongly] assume that since you can buy certain products over the counter, they *must* not be as good as the "hard to get, ultra expensive" items. What a flawed way of thinking.

My Poorboys Wheel Sealant experiment is living proof. I read countless stories over at autopia about how it was the silver bullet, the saving grace, the end all of wheel care. It was NO SUCH THING and is in fact, performed much worse than NXT 2.0 on my wheels.

So, while the example above might illustrate a difference in products, the way I see it is that *most* product manufacturers have a big problem with Meg's because they consistently put out top level products that are relatively easy to get at a consumer friendly price. Now, I'm not very religious, but that seems like the Holy Trinity to me!!!

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Well people can go into long winded explanations as why the 80 works better but the bottom line is it works better and looks better.
It really don't matter how it got their 80 removed the defects faster and left the surface looking much better.
From TH0001 post I guess I would need to follow the PP with #7 but why bother with all that extra work when all you need to do is use # 80

I agree. #80 will absolutely leave the paint looking amazing. However, if your goal to test the actual condition of the paint vs. the appearance left behind from the product, then your test wasn't fair, thats all. However, as Mike stated, no finishing polish to my knowledge will leave such a deep and rich finish as M80 does initially.

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

I agree M80 is an awesome product!!!

But where did you get the above information from?

Tim

Tim, I was told that on several occassions by several high up people at Meguiars. To you knowledge was information I was told correct?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

M80 Speed Glaze is a unique product, it probably won't ever "compare" to any other product due to the nature of the formula, some may try to copy it but if that ever happens... it still won't be Meguiar's. When working on something valuable to you or to your customer you don't have the film-build to make a mistake and you don't have the time to waste, so it's important that you choose the right products the first time.

For anyone reading this, note that the 1985 Bronco Black Bart buffed out had a single stage paint and we use M80 for our cutter on all our extreme makeovers with single stage paint.

Single stage paints love #7 for a pure polish and lover M80 for a cleaner/polish.

[Black Bart]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Well people can go into long winded explanations as why the 80 works better but the bottom line is it works better and looks better.
It really don't matter how it got their 80 removed the defects faster and left the surface looking much better.
From TH0001 post I guess I would need to follow the PP with #7 but why bother with all that extra work when all you need to do is use # 80

[roushstage2]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

I agree as well, both are different types of products. Either way, M80 is great!

[Tim Lingor]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Keep in mind that #80 was orginally designed to finish paint to bodyshop quality using a wool pad, so it will hide some defects (it also has the potenital to remove a large amount if worked correctly).

I agree M80 is an awesome product!!!

But where did you get the above information from?

Tim

[TH0001]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Not a fair test IMO...

#80 will easily destroy most pure abrasive polishes (such as poor boys) because it is heavy in the same rich glazing oils as #7. I have tested #7 against a lot of other high end glazes (or "pure polishes") such as Clear Kote, Danase, Zymol, Chemical Guys, and so on and have always thought that #7 looked as good as any of them.

So by using #80, you have removed some defects and also applied the rich oils to the paint. Keep in mind that #80 was orginally designed to finish paint to bodyshop quality using a wool pad, so it will hide some defects (it also has the potenital to remove a large amount if worked correctly).

By using a poor boys you have removed the glazing oils from the equation, so on one hand you have polish + glaze (or in Meguiars' terminology a cleaner and polish) vs just a polish. Applying #7 to the side you used poor boys on would have made the test fairer in terms of process (and likely made the results equal), but then of course penelize Meguiars #80 because of its uncanny abillity to mix two steps into one with minimal comprimise.

Also a fair test would have been to polish each section side by side then wipe the surface with a very strong alochol mix or even better, a prep-solvent. This would have removed the oils inhernet to #80 (and poor boys) and given you a very true test of the true gloss charcteristics of the abrasive meduim in the polish.

I have done this with #80 and found that it looses a lot of the darkening effect it produces on darker colors. In the end I am not suprised by your results because #80 is really a great combination of two seperate steps, and IMO, leaves the paint perfect for applying a carnauba wax. It really is a great product and should be in every detailers arseonal.

[3Fitty]

Re: M80 VS High Price Competitor

Story of my life with car care products. I've tried many things and no matter what I seem to drift right on back to my old Meg's staples.