interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

[ktlimq]

Below is what we can easily find in a car owner’s manual.

===============
seat belt cleaning

.... clean with soap water . . .

. . . Do not use chemical cleaners . . .
(or) . . . must not be treated with chemical cleaning agents.
===============

===============
plastic cleaning

. . . do not use solvent . . .
===============

===============
rubber seals (on the same page of VW Rabbit manual)

. . use silicone . . .

(a couple of paragraphs later)

. . . do not use cleaners (I do not remember exactly whether it was cleaner or protectant) containing silicones . . .
===============


Is soap water a non-chemical cleaner? Well, I heard about soap’s physical action: breaking down oil film – but is it really non-chemical? -. I see a list of chemical ingredients on the bottle of a liquid hand wash soap.

Water is also a solvent. So should we clean plastic with dry cloth only?

The seals should be treated with silicone, but should not be treated with cleaner (or protectant?) containing silicones?

[roushstage2]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

I don't think that they meant for the manuals to be interpreted that scientifically. It sounds like you are making it much more complicated that it is supposed to be.

[ktlimq]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

you are making it much more complicated that it is supposed to be.

I just quoted what is written on manuals, and I read the manuals as an ordinary person - not a chemist.

"it is supposed to be"
Could you tell me what it is supposed to be? It may be easy and straight forward for you, but not for me. So I posted the question on the forum to get help.

Is it a cultural difference? Are people in the US educated that soap (e.g. hand wash liquid soap) is not a chemical product in elementary school? I was in Korea and (West) Germany in my elementary school days. I do not remember learning that soap is not a chemical product then.

[Murr1525]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

Part of it is being overcautious so companies cant get sued. For instance, if someone bleached their seatbelt and got in an accident, and the belt failed, they would try to sue for not being warned.

But if you are looking at Meguiars products, and the product says plastic and vinyl safe, its plastic and vinyl safe. Same with the silicone debates.. the rubber and plastic in my cars haven't fallen apart, and same with everyone elses. So if they are in there or not, the products work.

[roushstage2]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

I just quoted what is written on manuals, and I read the manuals as an ordinary person - not a chemist.

"it is supposed to be"
Could you tell me what it is supposed to be? It may be easy and straight forward for you, but not for me. So I posted the question on the forum to get help.

Is it a cultural difference? Are people in the US educated that soap (e.g. hand wash liquid soap) is not a chemical product in elementary school? I was in Korea and (West) Germany in my elementary school days. I do not remember learning that soap is not a chemical product then.

I was meaning something along that lines that you analyzed everything to the end, "I heard about soap’s physical action: breaking down oil film – but is it really non-chemical" or "Water is also a solvent. So should we clean plastic with dry cloth only?" As far as what it is supposed to be? Don't wipe down plastic with B-12 Chemtool or another "cleaning solvent." I say cleaning solvent since we are talking about cleaning things. Brake fluid can be a solvent too, and look at what it does to paint. Would you wipe plastic down with that? I doubt wiping a plastic headlight, plastic instrument cluster, or plastic paneling with water will have the same effect as using an actual, real cleaning solvent. As you may or may not know, not every person in the world has common sense so there has to be words of caution so if someone does wipe their car down with a cleaning solvent, the producer can't be sued for not stating the obvious. My toolbox came with a warning not to stand in the drawers and use them as a ladder.

As far as 1st graders being educated that hand soap is or isn't a chemical product, or if that it is a cultural thing...common sense should dictate and answer here. (usually 4-5 year olds aren't performing automotive detailing anyways).

Answer to the problem:
They tell you to use soap and water, but one is a "chemical" product and the other is a "solvent." Both types of those products ruin things according to the manual. Therefore, you shouldn't touch or clean anything on your car because it can ruin it.

Problem solved?

[roushstage2]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

If you are looking for products to clean those three things without worrying about technicalities:

Seat belts: use soap and water
Plastic: a plastic cleaner
Rubber: a rubber cleaner/conditioner

[ktlimq]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

Part of it is being overcautious so companies cant get sued. For instance, if someone bleached their seatbelt and got in an accident, and the belt failed, they would try to sue for not being warned.

But if you are looking at Meguiars products, and the product says plastic and vinyl safe, its plastic and vinyl safe. Same with the silicone debates.. the rubber and plastic in my cars haven't fallen apart, and same with everyone elses. So if they are in there or not, the products work.

"overcautious "
I am an ordinary consumer just like you, and I do not know why we can say “overcautious” in that context. Could you tell me the articles for consumers that support your claim?
By “overcautious”, you mean that there are indeed many (chemical?) products available to consumers other than “soap” that are safe for seat belt, but car manufacturers warn against those safe products too.

What I quoted here is different from the “silicone debate”. Those minority protectant manufacturers and the followers on the Internet say “silicone is bad”. Their claim is simple. On the VW Rabbit manual, however, what matters is self-contradiction. On the same page, they tell us to apply silicone and to avoid applying silicones.

[Jeepster04]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

In short, they dont want you to use anything that will harm the seat belt. Just use common sense and dont use really strong chemicals on it.

Using something like megs APC cut 10:1 would be just fine to use on the dash, door panels, etc.

Some silicone based products are bad but anything meguiars makes to be used on the interior will be just fine.

[ktlimq]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

I am not here to act against any car care product manufacturer here. I want to hear why car owner manuals are so unclear and even self-contradictory.

There may be different “common sense” in the society of chemists or in chemical product or cleaning product industry, but I do not know about that, since I am merely an ordinary consumer.

Is it guaranteed (if so, by what or by whom) that a product whose name contains “soap” is guaranteed to be safe for seat belt? Is there a law to make such product safe? Are the ingredients of products with “soap” in their names strictly regulated by the government?

Since the people in detailing forums have far more intense interest in cleaning procedure and cleaning products than average people, I expected some of them might have read the cleaning sections of car manuals and even done research about unclear parts in those sections. I also thought it would be beneficial to some forum members, if those unclear things are clarified. That is why I posted the questions here. I would like to hear about why the manuals are unclear, or why the manuals are indeed very clear if we know some terminology in xxx industry, yyy community, or law governing uuu type products, etc. rather than "sss brand products are OK (based on belief formed by seeing advertisement campaign)" or "ttt brand products are bad (based on belief formed by seeing negative advertisement campaign)".

[the other pc]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

.... I want to hear why car owner manuals are so unclear and even self-contradictory....

Because owners’ manuals are written for the general public. It’s impossible to write anything that’s perfectly accurate, totally comprehensive and completely understandable by any/every random member of the population.

The best they can do is shoot for the lowest common denominator and try not to say anything wildly inaccurate or downright dangerous.

The only manuals that ever even come close are written for products that are intended to be used by highly trained operators, not the general public.

... I am merely an ordinary consumer....

I would disagree with that. I believe that you’re much more thoughtful and concerned than the typical consumer. Unfortunately, manuals for consumer products aren’t written for thoughtful, concerned people with very high standards. They’re written for the average guy on the street (who would probably never even think about cleaning his seat belts).


PC.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

I want to hear why car owner manuals are so unclear and even self-contradictory.

The reason for this is because they do what's called "Bubba Proof" their instructions, the keep them as vague as possible, by doing this they haven't committed themselves to any substantial or worthwhile recommendations yet they haven't really solved your problem by giving you specific product recommendation as well as specific how-to instructions, (how to apply and remove the product).

Most owners manuals we've read are just like yours, vague and lacking in specifics. Calling the dealership and asking for more specific information is usually useless also.

As for products, Meguiar's makes plenty of interior cleaning, conditioning and protection products plus we offer a guarantee with our products if you're not happy.

Hope this helps...

[ktlimq]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

Because owners’ manuals are written for the general public. It’s impossible to write anything that’s perfectly accurate, totally comprehensive and completely understandable by any/every random member of the population.
PC.

I do not think it can be an excuse for unclearness or self-contradiction.

Owner manuals do not give detailed chemical properties about ATF since it is for general public. However, I (who belong to general public, not a mechanic or a lubricant engineer) can understand what is written about ATF. I do not see self contradictory statements such as "use Dexron III approved transmission fluid, but do not use any product that contains ATF for your car's automatic transmission".

On some places, the owner manuals say that we can use "commercially available upholstery cleaners". On other place, it tells us not to use chemical cleaners. General public need not know the technical details, but the instruction should be at least clear to general public. Distinguishing "soap" from "chemical" product is not clear to general public, "use silicone but do not use silicone" is not clear to general public.

I wonder why people here seem to defend those ambiguity and self-contradiction.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

I wonder why people here seem to defend those ambiguity and self-contradiction.

We're not defending car manufactures and their lack of including specific recommendations, we're just trying to tell you that's the reality of how the industry works.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to contact the manufacture of your vehicle and do your best to go to the very top with your frustration and questions.

Then post back here what you find out and what they tell you as we would all like to find out what your find out.

[Nappers]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

Below is what we can easily find in a car owner’s manual.
===============
seat belt cleaning

.... clean with soap water . . .

. . . Do not use chemical cleaners . . .
(or) . . . must not be treated with chemical cleaning agents.

They don't want harsh chemicals that could break down the fabric and cause seatbelt failure. Any of Meguiars cleaners would be fine (maybe I wouldn't super degreaser as it's for grease)
==============================
plastic cleaning

. . . do not use solvent . . .

Any of the cleaners/conditioners in Meguiars do not contain "solvent" meaning, mineral spirits, paint solvent that type (gasoline is a solvent too!), those type of solvents can melt plastic.
==============================
rubber seals (on the same page of VW Rabbit manual)

. . use silicone . . .
I use Meguiars #40 to treat the seals on my doors and annually I treat them with silicone grease (for spark plug wires) and with 125,000 miles+ on the clock, they look and function fine. I also use Meguiars Natural shine depending on the mood I'm in
(a couple of paragraphs later)

. . . do not use cleaners (I do not remember exactly whether it was cleaner or protectant) containing silicones . . .
==============================
Silicones are slippery just use common sense when applying them to your vehicle.

I use all Meguiars products on the interior of both of our cars with no ill effects, our Neon manual has the same jibberish. I used Meg's Quik Out (made more for carpets than fabric) on the seats of our car. I use an older Heavy Duty Carpet Upholstery Cleaner all over the interior. I use Meg's #40/Natural Shine for seals, dash, door panels. All of the above I've used with no ill effects. One of the cleaners is "Body Solvent" which may have a solvent of some type, but it's used for removing tar from the side of your car so I would not use it for the interior

Just use the product for what it's designed for and you'll be fine. Always do a test if your not sure in an inconspicous area. I did. Now I sling Meguiars stuff all over the car. My car always smells like #40 inside, everyone asks what year the car is as it always kinda has the "new car" smell to it. I tell them what I use. I love treating the cargo cover as it uses a lot of 40

Have fun

Aaron

[ktlimq]

Re: interior care: car owner manuals are confusing

Below is what we can easily find in a car owner’s manual.
===============
seat belt cleaning

.... clean with soap water . . .

. . . Do not use chemical cleaners . . .
(or) . . . must not be treated with chemical cleaning agents.

They don't want harsh chemicals that could break down the fabric and cause seatbelt failure. Any of Meguiars cleaners would be fine (maybe I wouldn't super degreaser as it's for grease)
==============================

Aaron

I asked Meguiars after Meguirs Heavy Duty Carpet Cleaner was discontinued. The answer was that Meguiars currently had no product that could be used safely on seat belt. So you want to use some Meguiars products for seat belt that Meguiars recommended against?

I think I can call such attitude as "defending vague and self contradictory car owner manual." You made up another vague statement using vague phrases such as "harsh" "break down", etc. and made a claim that contradicts Meguiars recommendation.




The owner manuals are indeed vague for general public.
Suppose my neighbour asks me about the vagueness. Suppose I respond "you are going too technical, the manual is for general public", and say "the car manufacturer just don't want harsh chemicals, so you can use XXX company's YYY cleaner."
Then the neighbour will ask me what I mean by "harsh" and what I have to support my claim. That will be very natural normal general response, not a personal attack against me, not a super technophile attitude at all.
The neighbour may also ask me whether the XXX company's YYY cleaner I recommended is what the car manufacturer calls "soap".