i am a little confused or they are

[Thejoyofdriving]

Re: i am a little confused or they are

. But we all choose what we want - whether car care products, tires, engine oil, the car itself - largely based on personal preferences.

Not to put you on the grill here Mike, but I think that some brands have advantages over others, and again in my opinion, most of the time no two products are the same, whether it be because of individual company secrets or what ever, or offer the same results.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: i am a little confused or they are

Mike,

Would I then be in error to state that Meguiars does the same, and for a longer period of time?

What Meguiar's or anyone else says regarding their products has no bearing on the fact that Optimum came right out and said "ours is the ONLY one without abrasives". I just don't believe that to be true. Period.

If Meguiar's, or anyone else, uses terminology to describe how or what their products do, and the end result bears out that claim (case in point, Turtle Wax's new Liquid Clay Bar which has been getting some pretty decent reviews even though it's claims seemed by many to be a bit overzealous) then I don't really have a problem with it. Zaino's own website describes much of their product line as having fillers. While many may groan about Zaino's view on layering, at least they come right and tell you about fillers and the hiding of swirls.

I just have a problem with a company saying "we are the ONLY ones doing this" when I seriously doubt that to be the case. It's even more silly for them to claim abrasives are bad for clear coat finishes when they themselves make abrasive products used to correct marring in clear coats!!!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: i am a little confused or they are

Not to put you on the grill here Mike, but I think that some brands have advantages over others, and again in my opinion, most of the time no two products are the same, whether it be because of individual company secrets or what ever, or offer the same results.

Not putting me on the grill at all. I agree with you completely (you'll note I said that I did not think Meguiar's had a corner on the great products market and I also said that Optimum makes really good stuff). But in the end so much of the result you get from any product comes from your technique.

Seriously, if you have really bad swirls on your car and split the hood into sections and polish each section with Meguiar's, Optimum, Sonus and Menzerna and in each case you get rid of all the swirls, can you then say that one product was better than the other? The end result was the same, right? Maybe one product accomplished the task a bit faster, maybe one product worked better with a specific pad, maybe one product created more dust than the others. How do you choose between them when, in the end, they all gave you the same result? If you go to a large non-product specific detailing forum (ie one NOT run by a car care manufacturer) you see people getting incredible results from dozens of different products. Even for a professional full time detailer it doesn't make any sense to stock everything! But on that very same forum you'll find people having problems with each of those products. It comes down to personal preference.

I used a bunch of different products before deciding to go with Meguiar's polishes and waxes for my cars. There are still things I use from other brands and I still keep my eyes open for interesting new products.

[CWM3]

Re: i am a little confused or they are

I agree with Mike. It has been my experience that technique, experience from the use of other products and desired effects for outcome all weigh in on what is "best".

Let me explain. As a new guy to "serious detailing" (or what I thought it to be) I used Black Magic products with Turtle Wax stuff. Back then, those products met my expectations and I really didn't know the difference between products. As I grew older and tried different products I found that there were "better" products out there that were either easier to use or gave better results as I saw them. I learned even more when I joined this forum.

So, in the end, I honestly don't think that there is a "best" product. There are simply products out there that produce results that meet the expectations of the customer. But thats just my opinion.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: i am a little confused or they are

At least you're asking questions though, not just going "ooooh, these guys say their product will solve global warming and make me irresistible to supermodels!!!"

You mean this stuff doesn't. lol lol

[Mike Phillips]

Re: i am a little confused or they are

Mike,

Do you really believe you can replenish the paint surface with feeder oils?

Well that depends on the type of paint and the condition of the paint. Meguiar's has been around for over 100 years, most of this time, (about 80 years of it), the paint sprayed on cars were single stage paints and these types of paint when compared to modern clear coats paints are more open or more porous.

When you apply a pure polish to these types of paints, (single stage paints), the oils in our products could and would soak into the paint and bring out the richness of the color. (See the pictures below at the end of this post),

The majority of people on this earth see this as a good thing because it makes the paint on their car look good. Everyone likes their paint to look rich in color, with lots of gloss and depth and reflectivity, that's what our pure polishes do for single stage paints.


Enter the Clear Coat Finish

April's 1982 Corvette with a factory clear coat finish



When clear coats became mainstream in the early 80's because the paint technology changed our pure polishes didn't penetrate into new clear coat top coats as well as they do for single stage paints. So "Yes", now our pure polishes are more topical, that is they tend sit on the top of the surface however they still can fill in microscopic surface imperfections as paint is not completely flat at the microscopic level.

(Just to note, there are many other car care companies that manufacture some type of polish and they don't penetrate into new clear coats either)

That's why Meguiar's always states that applying a pure polish is an optional step, you don't have to apply them and in some cases they wont make a visual difference or at least a dramatic visual difference, however as clear coat paints become older and through normal wear and tear become more open through swirls, scratches and deterioration, for these clear coat paints in this condition, then "Yes" the application of a pure polish will act to improve the appearance, that is to take a hazy clear coat and make it more clear so that you can see the color underneath the clear layer better.

I don't know when Meguiar's started using the words... feed the paint or feeder oils, it was probably long before I was born back in the teens, or 1920's or the 1930's. For sure it was a long time ago when "Yes" , you could feed the paint and by this we meant you could apply a pure polish to a single stage paint and the result would be the paint would absorb the polishing oils and the visual effect would be the paint would look better.

This would also help to slow down oxidation because keeping these single stage paints loaded full of polishing oils made it so that something else couldn't get into the paint such as water and contaminants which would and will promote oxidation. So while a pure polish is not a paint protectant like a wax, at has a preserving characteristic which was also claimed and touted through the teens, the 1920's, the 1930's, the 1940's the 1950's, the 1960's, and the 1970's and yes into the 1980's and 1990's and even today.

(Can anyone name any other car wax company that's still around today that's been making cars look great since cars have been around?)


Now days, because of the Internet, people like to argue over waxes and this includes dissecting the meaning of each word used to describe a product, usually between people with apposing views and opposing allegiances to different car wax brands. We call these Wax Wars, or more generically Flame Wars.


Fine. If people have this kind of time on their hands to argue over car wax, then they can have at it. I used to get caught up in these kinds of Flame Wars but the reality of this is that you never win a Flame War, even if you win you lose so there's no value in investing any time in these kind of high school drama antics on public discussion forums. The underlying reason is because arguing tends to never change anyone's mind over any subject.


Older Single Stage Paints
Meguiar's pure polishes add depth, richness of color, and a deep wet shine to single stage paints that are either in excellent condition or have been previously cleaned. They help to preserve the paint by preventing substances that would attack or accelerate deteriorating from getting into the paint.

Moder Clear Coat Paints
Meguiar's pure polishes will add gloss to new clear coats or clear coats in like new condition and will restore clarity to older clear coats that have become hazy or lost their clarity due to deterioration and wear and tear.

They do not "feed" the paint in the way you feed food to a baby, but the term comes from the results from applying our pure polishes to single stage paints that have lost their luster and color as a part of a paint polishing process. My guess is the word was used as a simple way to get an idea across to the car owning population eager to maintain the finish on their car from the early 1900's to even now the present time.

(That's a long time by the way, as long as cars have been around)


It's somewhat analogous to what we wrote in the below article where we did our best to explain that when people say that paint needs to breathe, it doesn't really need to breath like you and I breathe in and out oxygen into our lungs, it means the solvents and other residual additives in freshly sprayed paint need to outgas and until the outgassing process is final then you don't want to apply any type of substance onto the paint surface that would act to seal the paint and thus block or hinder the outgassing process.


Here's the article...

Paint Needs to Breathe

Words mean things, just ask any Lawyer. Floating around on the Internet, and discussed for decades among car enthusiasts is the myth that paint needs to breathe.

Or is it a myth?

It depends on how literal you read into the words. If you apply the common definition used for the word breathe, then "No", paint does not need to breathe. If however you take a moment to understand the idea that is being expressed with this word, then I think you'll understand why the word breathe is used when someone says, or posts to the Internet that "Paint needs to breathe".

The below is just my guestimation as to the story behind the theory or myth that paint needs to breathe. I may be wrong, but my years of working with both painters, detailers and serious car enthusiasts as well as teaching detailing classes makes me think that if I'm not dead on, I'm at least in the ball park. With that said, here's my explanation of how the saying, "Paint needs to breathe" originated.

For the last 50 or so years, when a person would have their car painted, upon retrieving it from the painter, the painter would typically recommend that the owner wait for a period of time before applying a coat of wax or some type of paint sealant that seals the paint. The normal period of time that most painters recommend is anywhere from 30 to 60 days and sometimes longer, depending upon the painter and the paint system. The reason for this waiting period is to allow the different solvents and other additives enough time to fully evaporate out of and off of the surface.

Wax and/or paint sealants, whether natural or synthetic, or a blend of both of these ingredients, seals the paint by coating over the surface and filling into any microscopic surface imperfections creating a barrier coating over the surface. This blocks, or inhibits these solvents from escaping through evaporation, also referred to as outgassing. Solvents also called thinners and reducers are used to thin the paint down so that it can be atomized into a spray when applied with a paint gun under pressure using compressed air.

When a customer arrives at a body shop or a dealership to pick up their car with its freshly applied paint, most painters will tell the customer to wait a certain number of days before applying wax, or paint sealant over their new paint job. If the customer agrees, then that's probably as far as the discussion goes.

If the customer asks further questions as to why they must wait before applying a protective coating to their investment, then it is my belief that most painters would do their best to explain to the customer, in easy to understand terminology, so that the customer will understand and comply with his request. This is where I think the saying, paint needs to breathe, originated.

I don't think most painters would try to explain that the solvents need to outgas in order for the paint to fully dry and harden, instead, I think they would use a more simple approach and merely tell the customer that their new paint needs to breathe.

The above fictional analogy is probably as accurate as any assumption as to how the theory that paint needs to breath was started. (I'm open to other theories however but to date no one has ever put forth any other theory.)

People that understand the painting process understand that paint doesn't literally need to breathe; they do understand that fresh paint needs to outgas. This means that for a period of time, the solvents and other carrying agents, which are used to dilute paint to a thin viscosity so that it can be sprayed out of a pressurized air sprayer, need to work their way out of the paint through the evaporation process, also referred to as outgassing.

Read the below two scenarios and then decide for yourself, which scenario sounds more plausible.

In an effort to explain to their customers why paint manufactures recommend waiting for at least 30 days to pass before applying a coating of wax or a paint sealant, the painter can,

Try to explain the outgassing process over and over again throughout their career.
Use a simple analogy that the average person can understand without challenging the painter's judgment or expertise.


My personal guess is the second option.

If the simple analogy works, it will accomplish the painter's goal and allow the painter to get back to work, not spend his time explaining the painting process to each customer as they pick up their car. The goal of course is to prevent the customer from sealing the paint with some type of wax or paint sealant until the paint has completely dried and the out-gassing process is completely over.

Paint does not need to breathe in the literal sense that you and I need to breathe as living human beings.
Paint does need to breathe in the sense that fresh paint needs to outgas

Of course, in the last 50 years or so since World War II ended and the car crazy culture really revved up in America, (no pun intended), the result has been explosive growth in the collision repair and custom painting industries. It should be no surprise that the idea that paint needs to breathe has finally reached enough of a critical mass as to be the topic of discussion on numerous discussion forums as well as anywhere a couple of car enthusiasts gather to talk shop.

Depending on how literal you want to read into it, when someone states "Paint needs to breathe", what they probably mean is that fresh paint needs to outgas, they probably just don't know, or understand the term outgas, and/or they are confused like many people who have gone before them and are operating under the wrong idea innocently.

A different, but related version of the above would be someone that applies the same idea that paint needs to breathe to the paint on a brand new car which is also false unless the new car has been painted within the last 30 to 90 days. Sometimes during shipping from the assembly plant to the dealership show room floor, new vehicles are damaged and need repair including repainting. If all the paint on the car is the factory original paint, then it was baked on at the factory as it traveled down the assembly line and was completely cured before it left the assembly plant and it is perfectly safe to apply a coating of wax or a paint sealant of some type. If the car has been repainted due to damage during transit, then the areas with fresh paint should not be sealed with wax until the recommended waiting period has passed.


Well, this is my stab at the "Paint needs to breathe theory".


~~~~~~~~
End of Article
~~~~~~~~





An example of Meguiar's polishing oils penetrating into a single stage black paint.


Pictures taken from this thread...
Why Meguiar's recommends polishing paint

While I currently don't have any neglected cars sitting around, I do have a neglected Blazer Hardtop with oxidized black paint.



After washing the dirt and dust off the top I took a photo to show the dull, dry looking oxidized paint and also applied some painters tape to isolate the two sides for a good before and after shot.




Next I applied some #7 Show Car Glaze to one side and then vigorously wiped the surface off using Meguiar's Supreme Microfiber Shine. As most people know, microfiber polishing cloths are very effective and efficient at removing polishes and waxes off the surface of paint.



To make sure there is no confusion, this is the side I applied and removed the #7 polish onto.



This is the before side with no polish...



As you can see, the polishing oils have penetrated into the paint. In so doing, they have restored clarity, richness of color, gloss and beauty.

If someone wants to focus their energy on the meaning of the word replace, that's up to them, but the context of the article is that Meguiar's polishing oils provide a benefit to paint by adding beauty, gloss, clarity, reflectivity and richness of color, all things that we as enthusiasts enjoy and look for in our car's paint.



Nuff said...

(I hope)


Find something you like and use it often

If you find a product you like, then apparently the results look good in your

eyes, if you use it often, then your finish will always look great.

It's only when you begin to neglect or abuse the finish that it goes down hill.

[pcfxer]

Re: i am a little confused or they are

JAJAJAJAJAJAAAAA, FUNNIEST COMMENT EVER

That comment should be posted on record-classic!