The Swirl Mistery

[bronxon]

Hi friends,

Can someone explain me how the swirls marks are created? (always in circles ) I would like to know the physical or chemical origin.

I drive like 2 hours a day in traffic, so boring I have the opportunity watch a lot of different cars. Some of them are new but with swirl marks. How is this possble?

I am just curious about it, and after reading to the forums I got my halogen amp to check for swirl marks

I guess I am getting obsessed with swirls haha

Regards,

[DirtySouth]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

Swirls can come from quite a few different things, fortunately most of which can be prevented. Basically anytime a piece of dirt/dust/sand...etc gets trapped in between the paint & whatever is touching the paint, you are going to scratch the surface. This is why you want to always use 100% cotton or MF products when touching your paint. They also need to be clean, which means if you drop it on the ground, you better wash it before using it again.

Major Causes:
#1 - Automatic Carwashes.
#2 - Dirty or coarse wash rags/sponge
#3 - Drying with a coarse towel or rag
#4 - Rivets on the back of a girls jeans...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

Modern clear coat paints are "Scratch-Sensitive", this means although they tend to be harder than traditional single stage paints, they still scratch very easily and to make matters worse, the nature of a clear layer of paint over the top of a colored or pigmented layer of paint makes swirls and scratches easier for your eyes to detect.

Where do swirls and scratches come from? Theoretically, anytime you, or something touches the paint, the potential exists to instill swirls and scratches, therefor you duty is to always work on your car in such a way as to reduce the potential for causing harm to the paint.

• This would include the basics like using a high lubricity car wash and a quality wash mitt coupled with tools like the Grit Guard.
• Focus on the task at hand whenever you're working on the paint, don't be sloppy and careless.
• Always using clean, premium quality applicator pads and polishing cloths.
• Always use good technique
• Don't let people work on your car unless you're 100% sure they are qualified and care about their work.

These are some of the basics...

[TommyC]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

Is there a difference between covering up swirls and actually fixing swirls?

Such as, can a layer of wax cover up swirls? Or will swirls show through wax? Is there anything to be wary of that a body shop could just put on the paint to hide the swirls instead of fixing them?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

Can someone explain me how the swirls marks are created? (always in circles )

I don't believe they are actually always quite as circular as they appear under harsh lighting conditions. Have you ever shone a light onto your paint to reveal those swirls, then slowly moved the light? The concentric ring of swirls remains centered on the light. Because of this I believe it's more a trick of the light that makes us think swirls always are truly circular. Sure, they are curved, and I'm also quite certain that some will follow others, but for the most part I believe them to be small, short, very shallow scratches that actually run in all different directions.

Is there a difference between covering up swirls and actually fixing swirls?

Such as, can a layer of wax cover up swirls? Or will swirls show through wax? Is there anything to be wary of that a body shop could just put on the paint to hide the swirls instead of fixing them?

There are many products that will fill in and essentially hide swirls. It's actually quite common for a high volume body shop to leave a lot of buffer holograms behind and then cover them up with a glaze of some sort. The car will look fantastic when the owner picks it up, but after a few washes (even perfect washes that instill no new swirls) the glaze washes away and the swirls are revealed.

To actually "fix" swirls, you need to actually remove some of the surrounding paint, or clear coat. This sounds sort of scary, but for the most part swirls are such fine, minute little scratches that you remove hardly any clear to eliminate them. I also think that part of what makes a swirl so noticeable in harsh light is that they have very sharp edges on them, and polishing sort of softens over those edges so they aren't as visible. Couple that with the actual removal of surrounding material and the swirls are gone.

[cnfowler]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

I've always wondered about the circular pattern of swirls. I've had several people ask me and I have no way of explaining it to them. Someone please explain this!!

[Lydia]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

I don't believe they are actually always quite as circular as they appear under harsh lighting conditions. Have you ever shone a light onto your paint to reveal those swirls, then slowly moved the light? The concentric ring of swirls remains centered on the light. Because of this I believe it's more a trick of the light that makes us think swirls always are truly circular. Sure, they are curved, and I'm also quite certain that some will follow others, but for the most part I believe them to be small, short, very shallow scratches that actually run in all different directions.

That's what I was thinking too.

[the other pc]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

I think one source of confusion is that the terminology isn't "officially" defined anywhere. There seems to a certain amount of common usage but I think there are also differences in usage as well.

I would call a swirl a grouping of parallel microscopic scratches that appear as a distinct pattern of arcs, streaks or, well, swirls.

These are swirls:






Cobweb scratches a.k.a. spider web scratches, cobweb effect, cobwebbing or spiderwebbing is not actually a pattern of scratches. It's a visual effect, or rather an illumination effect. It's a pattern that appears when randomly distributed scratches are illuminated in a certain way. You can tell it's an illumination effect because the pattern "follows" the image of the illumination source.

These are spider web scratches:









PC.

[STG]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

So, what would you define as a hologram? I always thought holograms looked like the first two pictures.

[cv_soccer]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

There are many products that will fill in and essentially hide swirls. It's actually quite common for a high volume body shop to leave a lot of buffer holograms behind and then cover them up with a glaze of some sort. The car will look fantastic when the owner picks it up, but after a few washes (even perfect washes that instill no new swirls) the glaze washes away and the swirls are revealed.

To actually "fix" swirls, you need to actually remove some of the surrounding paint, or clear coat. This sounds sort of scary, but for the most part swirls are such fine, minute little scratches that you remove hardly any clear to eliminate them. I also think that part of what makes a swirl so noticeable in harsh light is that they have very sharp edges on them, and polishing sort of softens over those edges so they aren't as visible. Couple that with the actual removal of surrounding material and the swirls are gone.

Rather then polish, polish, and polish everytime I get swirl marks in my red MkV is applying a 'glaze' making the issue worse, or is it just delaying the polishing? I suspect that a glaze is nothing but a holding action but then how often should I glaze? I wash every week, hose off twice a week, I NXT every 2-3 months, and I use a detail spray after each wash.

What glaze would you recommend, and please don't say mothers

[Mike Phillips]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

Rather then polish, polish, and polish every time I get swirl marks in my red MkV is applying a 'glaze' making the issue worse, or is it just delaying the polishing?

The answer to the above question is no as long as you're using Meguiar's polishes, whether they be one of our cleaner/polishes or our pure polishes. The answer is maybe depending upon what's inside some other company's polish because some company's call their abrasive compounds polishes.

What glaze would you recommend, and please don't say mothers

Deep Crystal Polish is inexpensive but works great and is easy to find just about anywhere. #7 or #81 in our Professional Line are also good choices.

[cv_soccer]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

The answer to the above question is no as long as you're using Meguiar's polishes, whether they be one of our cleaner/polishes or our pure polishes. The answer is maybe depending upon what's inside some other company's polish because some company's call their abrasive compounds polishes.

I may be tripping over word definitions, but doesn’t the act of polishing remove some of the material that you are polishing? If I’m off base please let me know because I was planning to apply a glaze to hide things and then in the spring polish everything out.

As always you are a fountain of information, thank you.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

double post, sorry.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

What glaze would you recommend, and please don't say mothers

Now why would I recommend Mother's? They make cookies and we're talking about paint care.

I may be tripping over word definitions, but doesnt the act of polishing remove some of the material that you are polishing? If I’m off base please let me know because I was planning to apply a glaze to hide things and then in the spring polish everything out.

Again, this is one of those terms that doesn't have uniform usage from company to company. Meguiar's makes polishes that will indeed remove some of the material that you are polishing, but they also make pure polishes, like #7, that do nothing more than add beauty and gloss.

Your plan to apply a glaze to hide things temporarily and then polish in the spring makes a lot of sense. The glaze will help the finish look good, temporarily, until the weather is more cooperative and you can actually polish out the offending marks, whether those be cobwebs, holograms, swirls, what have you.

[the other pc]

Re: The Swirl Mistery

So, what would you define as a hologram? I always thought holograms looked like the first two pictures.

Some people use the words swirl and hologram interchangeably. Some say holograms only come from rotary buffers. Others say the same about swirls. What about swirly scratch patterns that aren't made by buffers? You can make swirly scratches with a cheap rag. What should those be called?

IMHO anything group of parallel scratches in the form or arcs, spirals, whirls or curls should be called a swirl no matter what caused it.

The word hologram has been hijacked. It already has meaning, basically a 3-dimensional visual image. There are swirls that have the apparent characteristic of 3-dimensioanality. They appear to float above or below the paint surface and move around as you change your viewing angle. I would say that these kinds of swirls should be called holograms (similarly, regardless of how they were formed.)

So by my definitions holograms are a special case of swirls. All (paint defect) holograms would be swirls but not all swirls are holograms.

You're right that the swirls in the pix look like they’re probably holograms but it’s impossible to tell from the 2-D images.


PC.