Problems with swirls/hollograms on dark paint's

[Jarlhov]

Hi,

I’m working at detailer shop and we have some problems with darker paint's. The problem is to get them 100% swirl free. We are using a rotary machine since the orbital machine isn't available in Sweden.

We are working primary with all Meguiar’s pads and with #66, #80, #82, #83 and the #85 compounds. The problem is no matter how I try I can't get some paint totally swirl free, looking at them with a spotlight and in the sun.

I've been told by David who's responsible for Meguiar’s in Sweden to use the #80 Speed Glaze by hand but that only hides the problem it doesn’t remove it. I've also been noticing that using the W-9006 pad with the #85 will leave less swirls than the #82 and the W-9006.

The problem is that I don’t know if it is the pad or the compound that leaves the swirls. Of course, I’ve been priming the pad correctly and softening it up with water. I've also been trying using an orbital machine by Festool but that doesn't help me. Maybe Meguiar’s machine would do the trick but unfortunately that machine isn’t available in Sweden. Another problem is that not all of Meguiar’s product’s are available in Sweden. Most of the Mirror glace line and the BSP line is however. I’ll post a picture showing the swirls as well.

[jfelbab]

That picture looks like an oil swirl. Have you wiped the area with Quick Detailer or Final Inspection and a MF towel?

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

Yup, the picture you posted does look like rotary buffer marks and/or holograms.

A couple of things. Meguiar's #85 Diamond Cut 2.0 was designed for use with a rotary only and to be used with a wool pad. If you use it with a foam pad, the buffer will hop around and possibly cause buffer marks as a person has to use a lot of force to control it. Also, I rarely need #85 unless I am removing wet sanding marks.

For cars that have moderate surface problems, I would use #84 Compound Power Cleaner (again, for use with rotary only) with a Meguiar's W-7006 Foam Cutting Pad. This combo should eliminate all but the worse swirls and scratches. But again, I usually do not need to go this aggressive unless the paint is in pretty bad shape!

Most of the time, I use #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish (DACP) with a W-8006 or sometimes a W-7006 pad for extra bite. (again, with the rotary)

I think part of the problem that you are having is that you are using too aggressive of products overall. If removing severe marring or wet sanding marks, then aggressive product are ideal. But for the majority of cars/trucks, it is too much.

Secondly, you may not be working the products long enough to break down the Diminishing Abrasives. As such, you will get some marring as you are seeing. Never buff the paint dry, but you need to work the products (85, 84 and 83) until only a light dust/residue remains. Again, do not dry buff.

Thirdly, Meguiar's #82 Swirl Free Polish should be removed while still damp. I have found that if you work the product too long, you may add marring back into the surface.

So here is something to try. Start off with the rotary, #83 DACP and a W-8006 Polishing Pad at 1750 RPM. Work the product until only a slight dust/residue remains; check the paint. In bad areas you may need to do this twice. If this still does not do it, then move up to #84 and a W-7006 Cutting Pad. BUT after the #84, you will need to step back down with #83 and the Polishing Pad. Follow this with #82 Swirl Free Polish with a W-9006 Finishing Pad using a rotary spinning at 1300 RPM.

Be sure to always use a clean pad for each step. Also another trick is after using a cleaner/compound, go around the car with #34 Final Inspection to remove any dried compound from the crevices etc. If any dried compound gets picked up in the polishing stage, you will add marring back into the surface.

Finally, it would be a great help you if you could obtain a Porter Cable Random Orbital Polisher (or Meguiar's G100) for the finishing stages. Many times, after using #83 with the rotary, it is a good idea to follow this with #83 on the PC (G100). This will help eliminate some of the real light buffer marks.

I hope this helps!

Tim

[Jarlhov]

Thanks for yor answers however I don't tinh my problem is that i'm using too agressive pruducts. The problem is that i can't find a way to make the last/finnishing step with the polishes whitout leaving light swirls/hollograms behind. I would really like to try the G100 machine byt that machine isn't availible in Sweden (Euroupe?).

[jfelbab]

Can't you order this unit from the web and use a converter to run it on 110V?

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

Too aggressive of product may instill deep swirls that are difficult to remove. As such, subsequent steps may have difficulty removing them . Hence, why my suggestion. Further, the swirls will be on all colors, but viewed easier on dark colored paints. As such, it is the process that is causing the marks.

One method to help eliminate holograms etc, is to use the G100 like I said previously:

"Finally, it would be a great help you if you could obtain a Porter Cable Random Orbital Polisher (or Meguiar's G100) for the finishing stages. Many times, after using #83 with the rotary, it is a good idea to follow this with #83 on the PC (G100). This will help eliminate some of the real light buffer marks.'

There are step down convertors available to assist in the voltage variances. I also believe that Makita makes a European version similar to the Porter Cable.

With the correct technique, it is possible to eliminate all the swirls with just the rotary; but it is not easy. Following the rotary with a PC will help, as long as the buffer marks that were instill by the rotary are not too deep. In that case, only a rotary will remove them.

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Jarlhov,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

Tim's information is dead on correct by the way. A couple of things,

1) The swirls in the finish look like they are very minor and light. To me that means you are doing everything correctly. I'll bet in lower light conditions, the finish looks awesome.

2) Creating a completely swirl-free finish using only a rotary buffer, without the use of the dual action polisher, or without the application of an last step finishing process is difficult.

I would try this, use either the #82 Swirl Free Polish or the #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 with the W-9000 or W-9006 foam pad on the rotary buffer at 1000 to 1200 rpm. Hold the pad perfectly flat, prime with M-34 Final Inspection before starting and while buffing if the surface gets gummy. Don't over use the product and clean your pad often with both nylon brush and by removing any product build up by holding a terry cloth towel into the pad to absorb excess product out. Overlap all of your passes by 50%.

Sometimes you will need to do this twice. Once with medium pressure to massage out any deep swirls, then a second time with light pressure, (using only a little more pressure than the weight of the machine and that's mostly to maintain even buffing action), to polish out the lightest swirls.

When your done, wipe off excess residue gently with the softest microfiber polishing cloth you have.

After this, inspect. With a gentle touch, you should be swirl-free. Any swirls that are still present will be so light, they can only bee seen in the right light. While the goal for everyone is 100% swirl-free, some paint types and colors will be almost impossible to hit the 100% mark without the use of a dual action polisher. If you can not obtain an electric dual action polisher to work out the remaining swirls, then the next best thing you can do is use an air-powered DA. A DA is the acronym used to describe a Dual Action Sander commonly used in body shops to sand paint and fillers off the car.

I'm going to guess that body shops over there use these tools so you should be able to find one. Of course these tools run on compressed air so your shop will need an air compressor to run it.

The DA Sander you purchase should come with a velcro backing plate already affixed to it. If not, most of the ones I have used all use the same 5/16 arbor that backing plates use so you should be able to swap the factory one out for the correct one to use with Meguiar's foam pads. Make sure of this before you purchase one.

Meguiar's started selling a foam pad for air powered DA Sanders back in the 1980's, possibly as far back as the 70's. I'm not sure. I know when I went to work for Meguiar's in 1988 we were selling them then because I can remember demonstrating them at body shops.

Funny how 20 years later, the electric version of the DA Sander, the Porter Cable, is now incredibly popular. Like many things, Meguiar's introduces new technology to the market years before anyone else.

Anyway, the air powered dual action sander maybe a workable solution for you. If so, use this air powered dual action sander as an air powered dual action polisher and go back over your work using the W-8006 foam pad with the #83 DACP. This should result in 100% swirl free paint.

One question, you say you are working in a "Detailer shop", do you mean like our detail shops where we work on cured paint for customers? Or are you doing the detailing work at a body shop on fresh paint?

If your working on cured paint, (non-body shop environment), what kind of wax are you applying after your through with the polishing step?

Mike

p.s.
Here's what DA looks like,







p.p.s.

Meguiar's used to sell a foam pad with a backing plate permanently affixed for use on a DA Sander. The part number is W-6000



Here's at least one website that sells it,

W-6000

and another one,

W-6000

[Jarlhov]

I work at a Detailer shop but somtimes i get to detail "new" paints.
Most of hte time I just use the #80 on the new paints then wipe it of. Bu if the customer wan't wax i'll apply the #26. I have one Da polisher (i'll apply a link to the Da) but i'm not sattisfied with the results the surface looks less "glossy" after I use the Da allmost like light cob-web. But it does remove the swirls but the gloss and shine however *****. I've also been trying to use a flex top-tool (it's like an Cyclo) but then i have the problems that i can't pads that are soft enough.

I think mayby the problem with the festool is that there is not enough "movement" in that machine. Also when you place the machine on the surface and apply only a light pressure to the machine it stops rotating and will only "vibrate". Unfortunatly i'v recieved the machine as a gift so i don't know if it's supposed to work that way.i will leave the machine to festool tommorow to see if it's brokend.

anyway here's the link to the festool machine.

http://217.7.135.83/festool.us/cat_mediando/index.cfm?module=display_single_product.cfm&iproduct=2066&iTemplateVersion=2002&bDisplay=y&title=Eccentric%20sander

[jfelbab]

BTW, has anyone noticed that the W6000 pads are almost twice as thick as the W8000 pads? I think I like them better for their thickness even though it is a little more work to change pads. They are very lightweight as well. Think I'm going to order some more of these older style pads.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Jarlhov
I have one Da polisher (i'll apply a link to the Da) but i'm not satisfied with the results the surface looks less "glossy" after I use the Da almost like light cob-web. But it does remove the swirls but the gloss and shine however *****.

Hi Calv,

I have noticed the same thing and posted many, many times on this same subject with most people either not understanding what I describing, or not believing the results I describe. The rotary buffer is a two-edged sword. It removes defects and creates a superior high gloss, crystal clear finish, but unless you use perfect technique with all the correct products, it can be very difficult to achieve 100% absolute swirl free results when viewed in direct sunlight. The PC with the right technique and the right products can remove the last remaining swirl, but on some paints, if you use to aggressive of a product or pad, and if you push too hard and use too high a speed, it can actually dull down the result the rotary can achieve.

I think maybe the problem with the Festool is that there is not enough "movement" in that machine. Also when you place the machine on the surface and apply only a light pressure to the machine it stops rotating and will only "vibrate". Unfortunately I've received the machine as a gift so i don't know if it's supposed to work that way.i will leave the machine to Festool tomorrow to see if it's broken.

The PC will do the same thing, if you push to hard, it will stop rotating and merely vibrate especially if you are operating it at a low speed setting. The higher settings, 5.0 to 6.0 enable it to continue rotating as it oscillates, but not all the time. It's kind of finicky.

Mike

[NY Detailer]

Lot of good advice you go on this thread.

There is a difference between swirls & halogram marks. I have found that swirls are the result of poor washing and drying from the customer or car wash. Halogram marks I have found to be caused from to much product left on the car from the machine.

If it is Halogram marks a good polish will take it right out.

If it is swirls continue what you are doing, work it in steps. Sometimes it take a little time to get them all out.

I feel for you not having a PC. If it will help you at all. I can buy a PC then ship it to you if you can't find one. Of course you would need to pay up front and trust me, alot of people know me around here so you can trust me if you want to do this.

[Jarlhov]

I think I've might have solve the problem I tryed to polish the surface with the W9006 and the #82 with a rotary buffer. trying to keep the pad 100% flat to the surface and with no pressure on the machine. And alot of product keeping the surface really wet.That will leave me with some minor swirls like in the first picture. The i do the same prossedure with the DA machine. This leaves a perfect result (at least on the car a tryed it on) but however this is avery time comsuming way and leaves me wit a pretty thick layer of #82 in the car that i have to wipe of before i can wax.

By the way the tec wax hides very light swirls, will the come back after some time or does it hides the permanently?

I'll pus some pictures on the first car so that you guys can se the result when i was done.

[Tim Lingor]

Originally posted by 2hotford
Follow this with #82 Swirl Free Polish with a W-9006 Finishing Pad using a rotary spinning at 1300 RPM.

I hope this helps!

Tim

I am glad it worked out for you!

Tim