Mequiars and clear coat

[J2005]

Hello.

I hoping for some replies, but I've found that my posting disappears from the "Detailing 101" forum list's most recent posts. I would expect it to be on the top??? Anyway here is my question ...

I purchased a few of the Mequiar's products recently to do some detailing on a one year old black car wirh a scratch near the driver's side key slot. The three inch arc shaped cut was apparently caused by a wayward key. One end of the cut, about 20% of it, was deeper than the rest.

This was my first attempt at any detailing whatsoever. I purchased Fine Cut, Medium Cut, Swirl Remover and Mequiar's yellow wax. I began with the Fine Cut and successfully removed the lighter part of the white cut mark. The outline of the cut was still visible, but the white was gone! All of these applications were done by hand.

As for the remainder of the cut, I repeated the Fine Cut application a couple more times. But with no luck I took "the next logical step" and used Medium Cut, again by hand. The deeper white cut was flattened out and is a lot more noticeable now on the black car.

I'm not sure 1) what I have done and 2) what I should do from here. Help!

Thanks for any help.
Jack

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Jack,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

I can't type too much as I'm cleaning up and processing paper work after today's detailing class...

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=118307

Read the instructions for using the Medium Cut, it should say for use by rotary buffer only. If you're hand applying this to a clear coat finish you're using the wrong product and will have to go over all these areas by hand with ScratchX. If that doesn't work then you'll have to get a machine to re-polish these areas.

Take a moment and go read the back label of the #1 Medium Cut Cleaner and post back here what it says....

[J2005]

Label contents

Mike -

Thanks for your reply.

This is an extract from the Directions on the back of the Medium Cut Cleaner.

"Shake well. ... Apply to one section at a time, using a Mirror Glaze buffing pad. Work product until nearly dry. .... Follow with Mirror Glaze Swirl Remover to restore gloss. ...."

What's the difference with the rotary buffer/buffing pad?
Is the rotary approach more abrasive? Less? What makes the difference between it and just rubbing with hands?

I'm confident you are familar with situtations like mine. Is this kind of thing common for novices like me? Is ScratchX an intermediate cleaner, between fine cut and medium cut?

I guess one important question I am asking is "do you think the underlying paint and the clear coat itself ok?"

Thank you again
Jack

[jfelbab]

x-cut cleaners are rotary only.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2524&highlight=fine+cut+cleaner+and+PC

Mike can correct me if I'm wrong but these cleaners require a good deal of heat to break down the diminishing abrasives. You will not get a good surface if you don't break down the abrasives during the polishing.

I'd attack the blemish with ScratchX if doing this by hand or #83 if using a PC.

[the other pc]

Re: Label contents

Originally posted by J2005
...This is an extract from the Directions on the back of the Medium Cut Cleaner...

Before that.

Here’s what my bottle of #1 Medium Cut Cleaner says before the directions:

METHOD OF APPLICATION: For use with rotary buffer only.


PC.

[J2005]

Thanks,

YES, that's what it says on the Medium Cut container.

As it is now, the surface of the area is blended and very smooth - no perceptiable scratches, cuts, or unevenness on the finish, but there is an area about 5/8" long and 3/16" wide that is discolored (whiteish/grayish). On a black car it is immediately visible.

What are the chances ScratchX or #83 with a rotary buffer will or will not work?

From your experiences, is there black paint beneath the whiteish/grayish spot?

Do you think the clear coat is intact?

How does the buffer and its heat function? Does it get the materials flowing like liquids together?

Again I am a novice and I appreciate your responses.
Jack

[the other pc]

It’s impossible to say for sure what the state of your paint is without seeing it in person. A picture would be the next best thing.

Just from your description I’m guessing there’s a good chance that your clearcoat is intact.

If you’re going to keep at it by hand ScracthX is your best bet. No guarantees but if the cloudiness you’re seeing is microscopic marring of the clear ScratchX may well work.

#83 with a rotary is a good combo for many defects but it’s only one of many options. Meguiar’s always recommends using the least aggressive method that works so normally you’d start with less aggressive processes first and work up to what’s effective. ScratchX is a good start. Here’s a how-to: How to remove a defect by hand with ScratchX

Also, a rotary buffer is an effective tool but an easy one to use incorrectly. It takes time and practice to learn to use it well. Used incorrectly you can cause more damage than you started with. Even if you don’t “harm” the paint it’s easy to leave visible swirls.

The rotary rubs the product against the paint very fast and very hard. Different combinations of products and pads will produce varying effects. Heat is generated during the process because you are doing work, and a lot of it, very quickly, but it’s not necessarily a useful function, more of an annoying side effect. If you aren’t careful you can build up too much heat too fast and burn the paint.

A polisher like Meguiar’s G-100a is much easier to use than a rotary. You pretty much can’t damage paint with it. It won’t be as aggressive as a rotary; there are defects it won’t remove. It’s vastly more effective than working by hand and can produce a superb finish.


PC.

[J2005]

PC

Thanks again for the useful information.

I'll see what I can do to post a picture.

If the clear coat has been compromised, what are the ramifications? Is there a sure-fire way to tell? Would the same procedures above handle it, or are there other steps that must be taken?

Jack

[J2005]

Hello -

It's been a long time, but here is some more on my post and your previous replies.

Since I don't have a digital camera, I have no picture to post. I will still work on getting one. Anyway, here is a summary of my attempts so far. Some of this is a recap of what I already posted:

1. The root problem was a "Key" scratch about 2-3 inches long. One end of the scratch was deeper than the rest.
2. I manually applied "Fine Cut 2" (scale number 5) and it removed about 2/3 of the more superficial part of the scratch.
3. I manually used "Medium Cut 1" (scale number 7). I realize that the directions call for a PC/rotary buffer, but didn't think it would matter. As a result I "flattened" the scratch to a 3/4 inch by 1/4 inch white spot. As I did this I noticed some black coming off onto the cotton rag I was using. Since the car has a black finish, I am assuming that some of the paint was removed, but I don't know.

Since then, I ...

4. Tried "Fine Cut 2" again with no results.
5. Per your recommendation above, tried I "Scratch-X" with no results.
6. I then per your recommendation ordered some "BSP Dual Action cleaner/polish 83" (scale number 6) and applied with an orbital buffer with no results.

I am stumped.

Again, the white spot is "flush" with the surrounding black paint/clearcoat. I just don't know what is showing. Should I try to apply the "Medium Cut 1" with the orbital, since that was the last and most aggressive product I used?

Is it possible for a manual application of "Medium Cut" using my finger tips and elbow grease to cause paint to come off?

Where should I go from here?

On the possibility that the paint is gone, would you provide me with some information on the physical make-up of a clearcoat paint job. How thick is it from metal to primer, then from primer to paint, then from paint to clearcoat? I'm curious because this particular white spot seems flush with the paint and is no where near the depth of a very small stone ding that I have on the hood.

Thanks for your replies.

Jack

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by J2005
I realize that the directions call for a PC/rotary buffer, but didn't think it would matter.

But it does matter. You keep referencing the aggressive scale on the bottle but that scale is relative to a number of things one of them being how the product is applied. Directions matter because they indicate how the product is to be used as the manufacture knows their product best and as such they tell you how to apply a product for best results.

Originally posted by J2005
Where should I go from here?

Thanks for your replies.

Jack

At this point, it sounds like you've exposed either a primer coat or a seal coat under the black paint, nothing else would explain what you're seeing. The best thing to do at this point would be to get a second opinion, take your car to a reputable body shop and see if you can get an experienced painter, or body shop technician to take a look at the area and give you their experienced opinion. Another option would be to find an experienced detailer but a painter's experience would be more valuable as anyone can call themselves a detailer yet not actually have experience enough to give you a valuable opinion.

It's important to not that with any automotive finish you have a limited amount of paint to work with, you can't just keep rubbing none product after another onto a defect assuming you'll be able to remove the defect before you run out of paint.

Meguiar's always tell people that often times they can improve a defect such as a deep scratch, but they cannot always completely remove the defect and in these cases you're better off to stop and either learn to live with the defect or have the car or panel repainted.

[J2005]

Thanks

A final question ... while I have indeed tried one product after another and seem to be at the end without paint, is it possible that a hand application of "Medium Cut" would have removed paint?

Thanks for the reply and I will do as you recommend.

Jack

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Thanks

Originally posted by J2005
A final question ... while I have indeed tried one product after another and seem to be at the end without paint, is it possible that a hand application of "Medium Cut" would have removed paint?

Definitely yes. It is a paint cleaner; Meguiar's paint cleaners are intelligent replacements for old fashioned rubbing and polishing compounds, and while they work much better than an old fashioned rubbing and polishing compound, they still have the ability to remove paint and that's how you remove a below surface defect, you remove the paint surrounding the defect until the highest points of the paint are equal in depth with the lowest points of the defects.

Of course this has to be tempered with judgment because you only have so much film-build, (paint thickness), to work with.

Here's an article that addresses this topic,


What it means to remove a scratch out of anything...


In order to remove a scratch out of anything, metal, plastic glass, paint, etc. You must remove material around the scratch until the surface is level or equal to the lowest depths of the scratch or scratches.

The below diagram if for paint, the the same thing applies to just about an surface material or coating.



In essences, you don't really remove a scratch, you remove material around a scratch.

Then the big question is, is the material or coating workable, as in can you abrade small particles of it and leave behind an original looking surface. For example, some things you can abrade, (remove the scratch), but you can never completely remove all of your abrading marks, thus you can't really fix the problem, all you can do is exchange one set of scratches of a different set of scratches.

The next questions is, how thick is the surface material you're working on or the coating. You are limited to what you can do by the thickness of these to things, (surface coating or surface material), and whether or not this surface is workable.

Sometimes you don't know what you can so until you try. It's always a good idea to test your choice of products, applicator materials and application process, (By hand or by machine), to an inconspicuous area. If you cannot make a small area look good with your product, applicator and process, you will not be able to make the entire surface look good. It's always a good idea to test first and error on the side of caution, versus make a mistake you cannot undo.

[SD_1964]

help with deciding which cutter to use

pls check my pictures and recommend which cutter I should start with.

I just bought the G100 DA polisher and #2 fine-cut cleaner

Thanks,
STeve

also send reply to me at: sdibari@msn.com

[Mike Phillips]

Re: help with deciding which cutter to use

Originally posted by SD_1964
pls check my pictures and recommend which cutter I should start with.

I just bought the G100 DA polisher and #2 fine-cut cleaner

Thanks,
STeve

also send reply to me at: sdibari@msn.com

Steve...

How about starting your own thread instead of tagging on to someone else's thread?

Simply click the link below and copy and paste what you've written in your post above into the message box.

Posting your question in this thread not only takes this thread off topic, it doesn't serve to help you.

click this link,

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=22

On the top right hand side, just down a few inches from the top of your screen will be a white text button that reads,

New Topic

After you click on that, type a title for your message to the left of where it says Subject (see example)

and then in the larger gray box below the subject, across from where it says Message, type in, or copy and paste your message.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: help with deciding which cutter to use

Originally posted by SD_1964
pls check my pictures and recommend which cutter I should start with.

We don't allow people to attach photos on this forum, if you want to understand why, the you can read this.

How to put pictures into your posts

The above link will take you to an article that was written and will include links to more articles that will show anyone how to work with images inside a vBulletin environment which will carry over to working with images in any discussion forum environment.


I took the liberty of downloading your picture to my hard drive, and then uploading it into your gallery here,

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/galler...=500&password=


The picture is kind of small and hard to see?