wax layering

[Iluv2zmzm]

is it okay to use a liquid wax ( NXT) and the next day add a second coat of wax, a paste wax (also NXT)??

would i just be undoing the first coat of wax?

thanks

[Mister B]

That will work fine.

In fact they recommend applying two thin coats of NXT. It will not make a difference whether one was the liquid wax and the other was a paste wax.

[scarface_]

There is no such thing as "layering". I'm sure Mike will chime in on this. Putting 2 coats of wax on the car is making sure that you didn't miss any spots the first time as he said in his class.

[Murr1525]

Dont think of it as getting wax 2-layers thick. Maybe it is a little thicker than 1 coat, but who knows.

[E-Jag]

You probably won't get much added durability - like twice as much with 2 coats or 3 times as much with 3 coats, but I do think that a couple of coats of anything will give you an appearance boost.
___________
E-Jag

[Kickin Griffin]

I do two thin coats of NXT 24hrs apart, mainly to ensure even converage but also the shine is a little deeper second time round as well... However, NXT Tech Wax isn't actually a wax in the true sense of the word like #16, its a sealent and it also contains mild cleaner that will act to rmeove a very small amount of the first layer by hand...

Pure waxes can be layered, like #16 (though this will yellow with too many layers), P21S/S100, Pinnacle Sig&Souv, Nattys.... Indeed spit-shining two layers of these waxes will generate a glossier finish than one layer alone.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by DevilDog
I have been using NXT on and off all summer long. But the only thing that really scares me about it is its lack of being truly layerable do to its cleaning properties.

Right before the winter months I like to pile on many layers of a product because I cant usually detail from dec to the beginning of march. My vehicle sits outside and is a daily driver and is hardly ever even washed during these times. Maybe a spray off at the local car wash when weather permits but thats about it. I usually go with something from Zaino or KSG for this time of year because of its supposed layering ability.

Now what I have been wandering for sometime is this stuff truly laterable or is it really just hype?

Is 2 layers just as durable as 20?

Is the first 2 thin layers where the durability comes from and the others just sacraficial?

Hi Devildog,

This is usually never a fun discussion and often times will evolve into a flame war. That said, to start with, here is some information from Meguiar's new FAQ

12. Are multiple coats of wax beneficial? (Layering)

That depends on what effect you are looking for: protection or beauty.

Protection

If your looking for the maximum protection possible, then one or two thin coats of wax, maybe even up to three thin coats of wax, has the potential to create the most surface protection depending on the wax, the surface itself and whether or not sufficient time has passed in-between each application. Of course the law of diminishing returns states that you will not create exponentially greater layers of protection with each application, but Meguiar's knows that a second, and sometimes third application will insure uniform, thorough coverage over the majority of the surface, thus maximizing the protection.

Environmental conditions today demand more frequent washing and waxing in order to prevent costly damage to the outer layers of paint. Just as important as a second, and possibly a third coating of wax is to provide the maximum amount of protection in any one detailing session, (especially on the horizontal surfaces), it is also vitally important that you wax more often to maintain your finish. This is especially true if your car is a daily driver exposed to the elements and parked outdoors most of the time.

Beauty

Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application?

In a word: Possibly

Generally speaking, when trying to take your car's finish to its maximum potential for clarity, gloss, shine and depth of color, there comes a point, or a plateau, that you will reach whereupon additional applications of either polish or wax will not increase the results of any of those categories. Of course, you are more apt to reach this plateau if your skill level is high and if the quality of your products is also very high.

These assumptions also assume that the surface in question is on

• * A brand new car
  * A car with a brand new paint job
  * An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition
  * An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent condition

If any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.

After time goes by and this plateau you have previously reached begins to diminish, you can restore the paint to it's maximum potential again, quickly and easily by simply applying a new coat of the right wax or polish. This maintenance procedure will only act to restore the finish back to it's maximum potential and shouldn't be positioned, or confused with making your surface deeper, darker, shinier, etc. than it's maximum potential.

Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.

Special Note: Ideas suggesting that repeated applications of a product will continue to increase optic clarity and gloss and protection are misleading you and your own common sense should enable you to understand that a finish, whether black, red, single-stage, clear coat, etc. has a limit to how perfect it can become. 100% of 100 is 100


Copied and pasted from Meguiar's *NEW* FAQ ,

13. Can Meguiar's waxes be "Layered"?

Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes), and 2) You must recognize that at some point, "The Law of Diminishing Returns" takes effect.


Layerable waxes

A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.

Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.

There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.


The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)

While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.

The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,

A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.


That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.

At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.

Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer". If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:

2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another.

Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.

You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build, and this is key; without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. of the finish

This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with. If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,

Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)

Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.

Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Kickin Griffin
Pure waxes can be layered, like #16 (though this will yellow with too many layers)

Just to note, I've used M16 for years and I've been reading people post that waxes with Carnauba turn yellow... but I've never seen this happen and I've never seen anyone demonstrate it or show the effect.

The reason I point this out is because I think this is just one of those urban legends that gets started and the passed around and no one ever stops to question the claim/statement.

M16 is blue in the can and I've waxed white single stage paints with it and never turned them blue. 99.9% of all cars being made today have clear coats and I've never seen M16 turn a clear coat blue or yellow and we have a wax called M26 that has the word Yellow on the label and the product itself is yellow but I've never seen paint with this wax applied to it turn yellow.

So unless someone can show proof-positive how our waxes turn any paint a different color I'm going to have to interject with posts like this to question these kinds of statements.

In the same vein, when people claim they can layer products, whatever they're called, wax, polish paint sealant, etc., as of today no one has ever proved it can be done. In fact all the people that make the most noise about it have never stepped up to the plate to take the challenge.

The silence is deafening...

[Kickin Griffin]

"Yellowing" is a terminology I use to discuss opacity (can you think of a better simple description?), and #16 defintely does have this effect with too many layers - its most notable in the muting of metallic flake, something that I have seen other paste waxes do as well (Collinite for example, but not Pinnalce Signature or CG XXX)... Carnuaba is by its very nature not clear, its opaque - mutliple layers of this (unless refined beyond its yellow state) will inevitably cause an opaque effect - why sealents are preffered by many for metallic flake. Unless of course the layer remains the same thickness at all times, in which case layering is not applicable at all, but the effects are noticable looks wise.

As for the layering, unless you can probe the actual thicknesses of the layers, how can you truly tell? I go on what the panel looks like, and for many waxes I have used, I find multiple layers work very well... In my experience, probably less than your's Mike but valuable none the less, I have found that #16 responds well to two layers spit-shined (any more, and you start to get notable flake mute). Pinnacle Signatue works well with two layers spit shined, and a topping layer 24 hrs later. P21S goes well with two layers spit-shined followed by another two-layers spit-shine 24hrs later (if the customer hasn't taken the car away by then! :lol. XXX I have only tried layering two layers by spit-shining, it worked very well, and I have more playing around with this wax to do...

I am currently hunting out scrap panels for practising with a Makita rotary, if any of them are metallic, I will layer on #16 with multiple layers and post pics of the results...

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Kickin Griffin
"Yellowing" is a terminology I use to discuss opacity (can you think of a better simple description?),

How about opaque? And yes, I would agree that M16 is kind of a translucent blue.

Along this line of thinking, are there any waxes, paint sealants or other products intended to seal the paint no matter what the words on the label say that are clear or optically clear to start with?

I have one sitting in front of me here on my desk call Blue Coral Gel Wax and you can actually see through it as it is clear and the plastic bottle it is in is clear. Outside of this product I'm not sure how many other products I've seen are actually clear to start with.

As far as layering goes, Meguiar's teaches 2-3 applications then after that you reach the point of diminishing returns, so yes 2 think coats of M16 should provide a more uniform layer on the surface than one layer, but after the third application you will have hit the point of diminishing returns, that is this layer will not get any thicker.

There's a lot of talk about other products that supposedly will get thicker and thicker with each additional layer but no one has ever proved these claims scientifically or with simple methods.

[Green Ninja]

Originally posted by scarface_
There is no such thing as "layering". I'm sure Mike will chime in on this. Putting 2 coats of wax on the car is making sure that you didn't miss any spots the first time as he said in his class.

Does this mean 1 layer is more than enough on a sportsbike as I am highly unlikely to miss a spot (its just a fuel tank and some fairings)?

[Kickin Griffin]

Even a completely clear product will never be "optically clear", if you get something that is completely optically clear with absolutely no impurities over a large area you are doing well... As a general rule of thumb that I apply, many sealents are "clear" and waxes "opaque" (loose terms here obviously, but as a rule of thumb, suitable)... generically sealents are clearer than 'nauba, as the former is a man made product and the latter is natural, its to be expected. As a result, you could get thicker layers of sealent without getting flake mute - but, I rarely use anymore than two layers of sealent and only ever to ensure even coverage as the vast majority of sealents I use I see no visible improvement after two layers, and some (NXT for example) have mild cleaners in them to act to remove preceeding layers. Also, two layers of a sealent is likely to be very durable anyway, and if its ultimate durability a customer wants, then I've had nothing better than two-layers of spit-shined Collinite 476S - a wax, not a sealent. To the squeak test, a car treated with 476S was still perfectly protected (and beading and sheeting water clearly also) six months after application, through a Scottish winter and living on the coast (salty sea air).

The term "yellowing" I use in descriptions as to my eye, the flake mute is a similar effect (though less blunt) to putting a layer of sellotape (sticky back plastic) over the paint, it dulls and mutes the paint very slightly and for me its a yellowy tinge that I associate with this kind of opacity, hence the term yellowing.

As for the Blue Coral, just how clear is clear? Silly question I know, but are there impurities in it? Unless its man made, there will most definitely be impurites, and even if it is man made there will likely be impurities... Back to what I was saying at the start, some products are simply clearer than others, but not product is optically 100% clear, ie 100% light transmission.

By the way, its 2am here and I'm stuck in the lab because the bridge is closed and I can't get home! I'm a little sleepy...

[Mike Phillips]

Applying two thin coats of any companies wax or paint protection product insures

Uniform appearance
Uniform coverage

Besides that it's up to you... If you wax often it shouldn't matter on a Bike.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Kickin Griffin
I rarely use anymore than two layers of sealent and only ever to ensure even coverage as the vast majority of sealents I use I see no visible improvement after two layers, and some (NXT for example) have mild cleaners in them to act to remove preceeding layers.

Let me check on this with Mike Pennington...

By the way, its 2am here and I'm stuck in the lab because the bridge is closed and I can't get home! I'm a little sleepy...

Don't fall asleep during theh drive home...

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Kickin Griffin

As for the Blue Coral, just how clear is clear? Silly question I know, but are there impurities in it?

It's pretty clear...

I see no impurities at all, it has a purple/blue tint to it so it's not completely colorless but it is completely clear as in you can see through it like you could see through water.

It's too late to take a picture for what I would want to capture but I might be able to get to it tomorrow.