Finished my first rotary detail, had some questions...

[navyblue2000]

Okay, I have the pictures at home (will post up tonight hopefully).

I did some work on my uncle's '95 Jeep Wrangler.
It wasn't in great shape, IE scratches, probably NEVER had a wax before, but it may have been slavageable.

Now...
Products used:
NXT car wash
Meguiar's chenille wash pad
Clay magic clay bar/lube

Tried some #83 with a 806 - that didn't cut it.
Tried some #1 with a 7006 - that was better.

Did the whole thing with #1 on a 7006, then applied #7 by hand, followed up with step 3 from the 3 step consumer line (carnauba wax).

I had a few questions:

Towards the very end of the detail, the #1 dusted up REALLY quick. Was this then, the appropriate time to change the pad? I only used 1 7006 pad on the wrangler (smaller vehicle anyway).

Now, this thing was flat SHINY after everything was done.

Now, I revisited the jeep a week or so later, and even though it had only rained (and it did bead up nicely when it rained)...after it dried up and the sun was shining, there were swirl marks However the paint was definitely still shiny!!

Did I not use enough pressure with the #1 on 7006 pad? Should I have maybe used some #83 or #9 on an 8006 or 9006 pad before going to #7 by hand?

Just looking to create a longer lasting fix! thanks.!

[Mike Phillips]

Remember, polishing paint is a Process, not a single step approach they way your doing it.

You just cut the finish using an aggressive paint cleaner and an aggressive cutting pad using an aggressive tool. You need to re-polish each panel using multiple products and multiple pads until you work the paint up to a swirl-free finish.

You should have definitely followed the #1/W-9006 combination with the M83/W-8006 combination and even after that if you really want swirl free results you'll want to do one or two more steps.

Creating a swirl free finish using a rotary buffer isn't the easiest thing in the world to do, if it were, then when you and I drive down the road we wouldn't see swirled-out paint jobs all the time.

[navyblue2000]

potentially dumb question...it rained probably an HOUR after we got done with the process. Would this remove the wax or anything like that?

Having also said that, a week ago there were no swirls, now there are. can a good wax create false confidence or something to that effect?

Thanks for the advice though, I've got my step dad's F-150 to do in a week or so...perhaps this one will have longer lasting effects!

[TH0001]

What Mike is saying

1=Very agressive
Rotary=very agressive
cutting pad= very agressive

result swirls....

To remove the swirls you installed in this processes your going to want to progressivly step down the agressiviness of the products...

Perhaps

83=less agressive
PC=less agressive
8006 pad=average agressiveness

or

80=mild
Rotary=agressive
8006 pad=average agressiveness...

This way your starting to remove the swirls you just put into your paint in your first step...

Then move on to either 80/8006 or 82/7006 via PC to finish up...

Also, DC1 AFTER #7 is counterproductive because you are removing the oils from #7. Also, number #7 is a higherquality DC2 that is harder to use but provides marginally better results....

The rain should not have effected the sealent too much, but its still a good question.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by navyblue2000
potentially dumb question...it rained probably an HOUR after we got done with the process. Would this remove the wax or anything like that?

Like I posted already...

M01 Heavy Cut Cleaner is an aggressive product and so is the W-7006 foam cutting pad. Together when applied with a rotary buffer it's going to leave behind a swirl that no wax is going to fill.

The correct procedure, again as I previously outlined, is to re-polish using less aggressive products and then apply a wax.

A wax shouldn't be used to fill in your swirls, you should first learn how to work in such a way as not to leave heavy swirls.

If you repeat the above process on future cars and trucks you will continue to get the same results.

[TH0001]

Mike, would you agree/disagree with my post above your second?

[navyblue2000]

Wow, I didn't think my reply was so contradictory. I was just asking a question.
I didn't realize we were all about tough love here. I'm just learning

As per what I posted above - Like I said, I will try in the future to take the advice you posted above.

Therefore I will not continue the steps taken as I had in this specific detail.

Thanks for your help...

[TH0001]

Mike just comes across that way on the internet....

In person he is a great guy who has helped me greatly.

You did some heavy cutting with the aggresivness of the product, pad, and tool. While it looks shiney, its got alot of scratches from what you did. Now, step of the agressivness and try to remove the marring. 83 via PC or 80 via rotary. Test a small area and pull back into the sunlight to see which gives you the better results. You may even be happy with the 83 via PC as a last step before wax, though I am not good enough for that. I still slight marrying after 83 (as it is still an agressive cleaner) with a PC and have to step down to either 80(mild) or 82(milder) to remove whats left from doing the 83.

By using the 1, you jumped off the deepend, so to speak. Thats a starting step (in most cases, way beyond a starting step), now you just gotta bring it back. No tough love here.

Todd

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by navyblue2000
Wow, I didn't think my reply was so contradictory. I was just asking a question.

Well your questions read like you didn't read my post?

I've noticed over the years that people don't tend to be readers, but instead scanners and on a discussion forum sometimes there is pertinent information that must be read.

The point I was trying to make to you is that you performed one very aggressive step to an automotive finish that left swirls and were surprised by this. I tried to explain to you that polishing the paint in the way that you're doing it is a multiple-step process to get great appearance results.

[Mike Phillips]

There's a thread right here,

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6224

That below I'm going to copy and paste some stuff I wrote in a reply to a similar type situaiton... It would be good to click on the above link and read the entire thread.

Originally posted by Solus
The questions is what is the difference between them, i mean i know fine is light compound and heavy is aggressive as dual action is light compound and diamond is the aggressive one, but why there are like 2 light compounds and 2 abrasives, is that because of different paints? like the ones of th body shops that sometimes are harder cuz of too much hardness and cheap paint, and that the stock ones are soft? Or is just preference or what would be a difference?

Hi Solus,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

The primary difference is they type of diminishing abrasive they use, at least that's the difference most people would notice when using them. All of these products, M01, M02, M04, M85, M84, M83, M82, M80, can be used on either clearcoated finishes, or non-clearcoated finishes. The 80's series are more modern technology based upon Meguiar's experience formulating products used at the OEM level. I would also like to add that the formula's for the Traditional Mirror Glaze Products, M02, M04, have also been updated when technology allows. I'm not sure about M01 Medium Cut Cleaner.

Either way, both groups of products work well when used according to directions on the label and which one works best for you will be based upon your personal preferences.

I'm sure a lot of you guys have used these products would you share with me some of your experience with them? plus comments.

I think Travis has contributed a lot to this thread already, thank you Travis!

Sometimes you have to work on the Sun because theres no shade, also many compounds dry too fast cuz of the hot surface and evaporate leaving all sticky the compound on the paint, i don't know if this happens with these compounds.

There are no compounds, paint cleaners, cleaner/polishes or pure polishes manufactured by Meguiar's specifically formulated for use in direct sunlight on automotive paints. The sun, or more specifically, the heat created by sunlight will increase surface temperature of the finish and make any product more difficult to work with and affect the performance of the product dramatically. Meguiar's always recommends working on a cool surface in the shade. We understand that when doing mobile detailing work, this isn't always possible, one solution is to do what Joe of
Superior Shine Mobil Auto Detailing does and that is to use a portable canopy when working in direct sunlight.



You can check out Joe's most excellent before and after write-up on how he removed the swirls in the finish of the black BMW using Meguiar's compounds, polishes and waxes in the below thread. (If the below makeover doesn't knock your socks off, nothing will!)

BMW 745il Extreme Make-Over

Also do they hide swirl marks?

Meguiar's compounds, paint cleaners and cleaner/polishes all use Meguiar's Diminishing Abrasive Technology. When used correctly, the diminishing abrasive technology Meguiar's has pioneered since 1901 and continues to improve today, will do two things,

• 1. Remove the below surface defects, swirls, sanding marks, etchings, oxidation, etc.
  2. Remove their own marks as they reduce in size and polish out

like i like to wash the car with a sponge after compound and polish just with water to remove all the dust left by compounding and polishing, and then after that i glaze it and protect it with a pure wax or polymer.(depending on the color)

I been detailing for 2 years started with a rotary buffer burning some paints :P but well i have worked on 2 detail shops and a mobile detail, and i got some experience from there, also by doing some side jobs. I don't burn paint anymore

I would recommend reading the below two threads in the Hot Topics because they discuss in detail working what can and what cannot be done with a rotary buffer as far as creating a swirl free finish.

Need HELP! - How to avoid holograms?

How to avoid swirls and holograms?

In the end, in order to guarantee a completely swirl free finish on a dark colored paint in bright lights, you're going to need to re-polish each panel either by hand or with a dual action polisher to insure any remaining minor swirls induced by the direct drive circular contact between your pad of choice on a rotary buffer and the paint are completely removed. That, or use a coating or two of wax to insure any remaining holograms or swirls are eliminated.

Read the above two threads as there is a lot of good information in them that would not be efficient to try to re-post into this thread.

Here is one example of a selection of products you can start out with when switching over to Meguiar's from 3M. This is not you're only option, but I'm trying to keep it simple with only a few products for you to experiment with.

The M84 Compound Power Cleaner is an easy product to use with a lot of play time. It is formulated to be used with foam pads, not wool pads, so you can avoid using wool and thus avoid instilling wool fiber swirls.

The M80 Speed Glaze is a light cleaner/polish that will remove fine swirls with our W-8006 polishing pad. The key to making this product remove any leftover swirls from the M84 Compound Power Cleaner is to make sure you buff the M84 completely so that you have broken all of the diminishing abrasives down completely. This is the trick to not leaving behind any deeper swirls with Meguiar's compounds. (Don't buff to a dry buff however).

The M80 Speed Glaze is also easy to work with, offers a lot of play time, and easy to wipe off. You can then also use it with the dual action polisher to insure there are no remaining swirls. M80 Speed Glaze produces a very, very, clear and glossy finish, perfect for applying your LSP to.

Again, the below recommendations are not the only products or method of tackling every car, but it is a system that will work on most cars that you will come across and 99.9% of the time, it will produce professional results you can be proud of and your customers will love you for and recommend you to their friends.

It's also the system I used to remove the swirls on this clearcoated Corvette and restore a swirl-free, crystal clear finish.

1999 Corvette - Remove Swirls and Scratches


~~~~~~~~~


First Step Products and Process
Rotary Buffer for removing serious below surface defects,

Compound Power Cleaner
SOFTBUFFâ„¢ Cutting Pad



Second Step Products and Process
Rotary buffer for removing any residual swirls or haze left by the first step process.

Speed Glaze
Soft Buff® Foam Polishing Pads




Third Step Products and Process
Dual Action Polisher to insure a completely swirl free finish in direct sun or bright lights.

Electric Dual Action Polisher
Speed Glaze
Soft Buff® Foam Polishing Pads



At this step, use the above same products that you used with a rotary buffer in your second step process, only now substitute a different machine to apply them with. For this step, use a dual action polisher to re-polish each panel using the oscillating action of this type of machine to polish and remove any remaining swirls left by the rotary buffer to insure a completely swirl-free finish.





Last Step Products and Process
By hand or using a dual action polisher to apply your choice of wax, also known as your L.S.P., Last Step Product, this is the last product you apply and remove before standing back and saying to yourself, it is finished. Then, turn the car back over to the excited owner!

Electric Dual Action Polisher
SOFTBUFFâ„¢ Finishing Pad





Meguiar's LSP's

Here are a few options for last step products if you've performed a multiple-step process as outlined above.

NXT Generation„¢ Tech Wax



NXT Generation Tech Wax Paste



Gold Class Clear Coat Car Wax



Deep Crystal System Carnauba Wax



Hi-Tech Yellow Wax




Synthetic Sealant




Polymer Sealant



~~~~~~~~~~

This reply took a little while to write, I hope it helps...

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by TH0001
Mike, would you agree/disagree with my post above your second?

I would agree, you summed it up very nicely.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by navyblue2000


I'm just learning

Thanks for your help...

We're all learning, we just have different starting times on the journey. A great primer to all of this stuff would be to get your hands on our how-to video on using the rotary buffer.

http://www.meguiars.com/?pro-car-detailing-accessories/Professional-Education-Series-Video

[navyblue2000]

Hey, thanks for the help Mike.

I understand a lot better now.

It's like trying to sand with 60 grit, then with 1200 grit and expect it to be perfect...doesn't happen.

Next go round I'll take more care to not be so abrupt (in the forums AND on a car lol).

One last question, I read and didn't really see anything - when the products starts to dust over, immediately while being applied...is that when it's time to change the pad?

[Mobilejoe]

When you use a product like the # 1, you need to clean off your pad on a regular basis, the #1 does not have a lot of lubricant built into the product, hench to make it a aggressive product. I use a triple duty brush or old toothbrush to clean my pads.

Not sure how often you were cleaning them but I find the more aggressive the product, the more you need to clean the pads.

[Mike Phillips]

Two things to remember when using a rotary buffer,

1) Clean your pad often. As Joe pointed out, it's important to clean your pad often, most people don't clean their pads often enough when using the rotary buffer. I like to error on the side of caution and I clean my pad after each use. That is if I buff a section of a panel, after I've buffed that panel to the point that I'm done with the product I placed on the panel, before buffing that area again, or moving on to a new section, I'll clean my pad.

2) Always remove any left over residue on the section your working on before applying more product to the section to work it again. To leave spent product on a panel dilutes/adulterates/diminishes the fresh product your applying and creates a potential swirl problem because it's used product contaminated with dirt and paint particles.


Joe mentioned the #1 Medium Cut Cleaner doesn't have a lot of lubrication in the formula but actually it's a fairly wet product, it's M85 that tends to be a little less wet than M84

We would never position a product to be dry, because they're all liquids. A better way to describe a product would be to say that it is less wet than such and such products.

So clean your pad often and make sure you're always wiping down any panel to leave it clean before applying new product and working it in and against the finish.

To clean a foam pad, simply hold your rotary buffer in a way as to brace the buffer body against your front thigh muscle. If you have a rotary buffer with a stick handle you can lock the buffer fairly firmly against your leg by sandwiching the body of the buffer between your thigh muscle and handle.

Then press the power trigger and bring the buffer up to a high speed, RPM or higher and then hold a nylon brush like a toothbrush or a specialty tool like this Ferro Pad Cleaning Brush against the foam and this will dislodge and remove any built up product, dirt, dust and any other contaminants.