Can you layer #20

[hai4ap]

I tried searching, but I can't seem to find a straight answer on the subject. I know #20 has some cleaners in it, so if I want to apply a second coat after the first cures, will it strip the first coat off or will I be okay layering it like this. I want to do 2 coats of #20 which I already have, and top with #26.

[Jeff Smith]

Re: Can you layer #20

Originally posted by hai4ap
I tried searching, but I can't seem to find a straight answer on the subject. I know #20 has some cleaners in it, so if I want to apply a second coat after the first cures, will it strip the first coat off or will I be okay layering it like this. I want to do 2 coats of #20 which I already have, and top with #26.

to MOL

You can apply 2 coats of #20. I have done it on my truck several times. Yes the little bit of cleaners in #20 are likely to pull off some of the first coat. But, it will not likely pull it all off and the 2nd coat will help you be sure that you will have a decent uniform coat on there before you apply your topper.

In essence you could alomost consider your 2 "thin" coats of #20 as ending up being just one coat. You are not hurting anything by applying the 2nd coat but it should give you piece of mind knowing that you have applied 2 coats and now have a good uniform layer to work from.

My way of thinking is that I always consider each 2 coats as actually being just one.

Hope this helps.

Adding an afterthought here. I assume you are working by hand. Using the High Tech Applicator is about the most delicate way to apply your wax and not remove more of the 1st layer then any other application.

High-Tech Applicator Pad

High-Tech Applicator Pad

[Mike Phillips]

The cleaners in #20 will likely remove most or all of the protection ingredients left behind from the first application, but the big picture is that two thin coats of #20 will end up leaving a more uniform layer of protection over the entire finish than just one coat.

If you're using the #20 as a cleaner/wax and applying two coats to get enough cleaning results, you might be better off using a dedicated paint cleaner or a cleaner/polish to prepare the surface and then apply the M20 and follow this with the M26 if you want to layer a pure wax over a product like the #20.

If you're applying two coats of M20 because you want to build up a layer of protection then Meguiar's teaches the philosophy of diminishing returns. That is the surface of your car's paint will only hold so much wax before all you begin to do is apply and wipe the product off.

There is a lot of misinformation on the Internet about layering different products and some people actually believe they can build up a measurable film build and brag about having 30 layers, or 60 layers, or 90 layers etc., but the truth is, no one has ever backed this up with proof.

At the same time, layering these excessive amounts of products does sell a lot of product and layers the manufactures bank account with more money.

Here's something I wrote on this subject... taken from this thread,

What's the Deal with "Layering"?

Originally posted by DevilDog
I have been using NXT on and off all summer long. But the only thing that really scares me about it is its lack of being truly layerable do to its cleaning properties.

Right before the winter months I like to pile on many layers of a product because I cant usually detail from dec to the beginning of march. My vehicle sits outside and is a daily driver and is hardly ever even washed during these times. Maybe a spray off at the local car wash when weather permits but thats about it. I usually go with something from Zaino or KSG for this time of year because of its supposed layering ability.

Now what I have been wandering for sometime is this stuff truly laterable or is it really just hype?

Is 2 layers just as durable as 20?

Is the first 2 thin layers where the durability comes from and the others just sacrificial?

Hi Devildog,

This is usually never a fun discussion and often times will evolve into a flame war. That said, to start with, here is some information from Meguiar's new FAQ

12. Are multiple coats of wax beneficial? (Layering)

That depends on what effect you are looking for: protection or beauty.

Protection

If your looking for the maximum protection possible, then one or two thin coats of wax, maybe even up to three thin coats of wax, has the potential to create the most surface protection depending on the wax, the surface itself and whether or not sufficient time has passed in-between each application. Of course the law of diminishing returns states that you will not create exponentially greater layers of protection with each application, but Meguiar's knows that a second, and sometimes third application will insure uniform, thorough coverage over the majority of the surface, thus maximizing the protection.

Environmental conditions today demand more frequent washing and waxing in order to prevent costly damage to the outer layers of paint. Just as important as a second, and possibly a third coating of wax is to provide the maximum amount of protection in any one detailing session, (especially on the horizontal surfaces), it is also vitally important that you wax more often to maintain your finish. This is especially true if your car is a daily driver exposed to the elements and parked outdoors most of the time.

Beauty

Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application?

In a word: Possibly

Generally speaking, when trying to take your car's finish to its maximum potential for clarity, gloss, shine and depth of color, there comes a point, or a plateau, that you will reach whereupon additional applications of either polish or wax will not increase the results of any of those categories. Of course, you are more apt to reach this plateau if your skill level is high and if the quality of your products is also very high.

These assumptions also assume that the surface in question is on

• * A brand new car
  * A car with a brand new paint job
  * An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition
  * An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent condition

If any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.

After time goes by and this plateau you have previously reached begins to diminish, you can restore the paint to it's maximum potential again, quickly and easily by simply applying a new coat of the right wax or polish. This maintenance procedure will only act to restore the finish back to it's maximum potential and shouldn't be positioned, or confused with making your surface deeper, darker, shinier, etc. than it's maximum potential.

Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.

Special Note: Ideas suggesting that repeated applications of a product will continue to increase optic clarity and gloss and protection are misleading you and your own common sense should enable you to understand that a finish, whether black, red, single-stage, clear coat, etc. has a limit to how perfect it can become. 100% of 100 is 100


And this...

Copied and pasted from Meguiar's *NEW* FAQ ,

13. Can Meguiar's waxes be "Layered"?

Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes), and 2) You must recognize that at some point, "The Law of Diminishing Returns" takes effect.


Layerable waxes

A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.

Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.

There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.


The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)

While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.

The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,

A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.


That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.

At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.

Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer". If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:

2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another.

Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.

You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build, and this is key; without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. of the finish

This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with. If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,

Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)

Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.

Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.

Mike Phillips

[Jeff Smith]

Thanks for enlightening me there Mike. I have been under the impression #20 was light on the cleaning properties so I was thinking it some of the previous layer but was not thinking it would pull off most or all of it. Glad you pointed that out as that was not my conception.

For me. If I do am working up a full 5-Step on my truck I skip the #20 and go to the #21 then top. But I have had decent results by just going #20-#21 then NXT. But I have only tried this once I think. I am getting bad with all this. I have tried so many combinations that I can't even remeber when I did what.

I am in the middle of one of my overdone efforts with my truck again. I am going with 2 coats of #21 this time then NXT. I wouldn;t bet money against this only being on there for a month or so before I switch up and try something else.

Meguiar's needs to get on the Ball and make some more waxes before I run out of combinations over here.

[tguil]

My two cents:

I think that I am pretty much done with the two coat thing *unless* the second coat is #16 or #26. If Meguiar's made a synthetic without cleaners I might try that.

I use a PC to wax my vehicles. For the nooks and crannies, I use a foam applicator. I think that I get very uniform coverage with my single application. I also think that a wax with some cleaner in it is necessary to get rid of the build up from soap scum, road grime, etc. Mild abrassives are necessarry to remove the minor marring from washing. Therefore #6, #66 or ColorX are good choices.

Most recently I have used Color X. It contains a cleaner, a mild abrassive, polymers and carnauba. (Right, Mike?) A single coat of Color X looks as good as anything that I have ever applied to a vehicle. Oh course my truck was in very good shape when I used it --only minor marring.

If I have more serious marring than ColorX can handle or if I'm just in the mood to mess with another product, I'll get out the #83 or #80 and follow it with NXT.

Anyone want to form a 12 Step group for obsessive compulsive detailers?

Tom

[sneek]

i actually didn't know that almost all if not all of the first coat would be removes i thought just a little bit

but at least i do #26 on top

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by sneek
i actually didn't know that almost all if not all of the first coat would be removes i thought just a little bit

but at least i do #26 on top

I knew it was possible to likely remove a good bit, say 1/2 or more. But I did not think #20's cleaners were strong enough to remove most, if not all as Mike stated, I am glad he chimed in there. Good info to know. I "knew" he was good for something!