Diamond Cut Compound /orangepeel question

[davydoo]

Hello everyone.
I'm new here and have a few questions. I paint bicycle frames and occasionally have some overspray problems with the clearcoat. This causes dry spots or orangepeel. The way we usually take care of this is to wetsand, then buff with a DA buffer. I recently decided to try some Meguiar's Diamond Cut Compound 2.0, product # 8532, that is rated 85 cutting. Is this a good product to use for our overspray problems? We had been using 3M Finesse-it, but wanted to try something different. Is there a different Meguiars' product that is better suited for this purpose?

Any suggestions or recommendations are appreciated.

Thanks.

[Pete-FWA]

Re: Diamond Cut Compound /orangepeel question

Originally posted by davydoo
I recently decided to try some Meguiar's Diamond Cut Compound 2.0, product # 8532, that is rated 85 cutting.

Hi there...welcome to MOL

Curious, who told you the 85 is a rating for the cut? I've never heard this before. M85 is the part number for that product, one of the most aggressive cleaners that Meguiar's offers.

Does Finesse-It do the job well enough, or do you want something with more cut?

[sneek]

welcome to MOL
i think claying is the best way to deal with overspray. but i tihnk you are supposed to use #85 and the maroon pad for orange peel

no sure tho

[Pete-FWA]

Sneek, I believe what Davydoo means by overspray is a bit different than what we often see on this forum. His overspray is the type that occurs in the paint booth while the topcoat is fresh and still being applied.

With the curves on frame tubes, it's very tough to paint the entire piece and not shoot a bit of extra topcoat on one area when painting another. Although it is overspray, this type is fresh and blends in with the still-wet topcoat.

As it dries, it causes the two problems he mentioned. When the top coat gets a heavy jet of material on it, the paint gets thicker and shows texture, often called orange peel. If too much extra gets on there, it sags or runs. If the overspray is a thiner mist, it appears dusty and feels a bit coarse when dry. This is also called a dry spray.

The big difference in removal of these is that they cure along with the rest of the surface, so claying won't remove them when cured. This overspray IS the top surface of the finish, not an accidental coating on the top surface i.e. road paint or spray from an industrial painter shooting the neighbor's house.

This type of overspray requires removing a good deal of material to get the surface looking consistent again. Sometimes it requires wetsanding first, but the ultimate goal is to remove a fair amount of the top paint surface, far more than what we do in the average paint clean/compound step. Generally, this is done with some very aggressive means, such as wet sanding and compounding. If paint is too fresh when clayed, the clay will actually damage the finish, often removing the paint.

[sneek]

ooo i c i though he was painting his bikes in his garage and he got some on his car

[Pete-FWA]

That certainly can happen.

[davydoo]

Originally posted by Pete-FWA
Sneek, I believe what Davydoo means by overspray is a bit different than what we often see on this forum. His overspray is the type that occurs in the paint booth while the topcoat is fresh and still being applied.

With the curves on frame tubes, it's very tough to paint the entire piece and not shoot a bit of extra topcoat on one area when painting another. Although it is overspray, this type is fresh and blends in with the still-wet topcoat.

As it dries, it causes the two problems he mentioned. When the top coat gets a heavy jet of material on it, the paint gets thicker and shows texture, often called orange peel. If too much extra gets on there, it sags or runs. If the overspray is a thiner mist, it appears dusty and feels a bit coarse when dry. This is also called a dry spray.

The big difference in removal of these is that they cure along with the rest of the surface, so claying won't remove them when cured. This overspray IS the top surface of the finish, not an accidental coating on the top surface i.e. road paint or spray from an industrial painter shooting the neighbor's house.

This type of overspray requires removing a good deal of material to get the surface looking consistent again. Sometimes it requires wetsanding first, but the ultimate goal is to remove a fair amount of the top paint surface, far more than what we do in the average paint clean/compound step. Generally, this is done with some very aggressive means, such as wet sanding and compounding. If paint is too fresh when clayed, the clay will actually damage the finish, often removing the paint.

Yes, that's exactly what the problem is. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Probably too many paint fumes. I thought that the number "85" on the container refered to the chart and it indicated a heavy cutting. So does the 2.0 refer to the chart and indicate a light cutting? I see that would make more sense.

When we wet sand for a dry area it's usually with 800-1000 grit paper then buff. For a run we may go to a 400-500 grit then finer before buffing.

I was just wondering if the Diamond Cut Compound 2.0 was the right stuff for the job or if there is something better suited. I know it smells nice!

I guess what I'm asking is what to use for removing 800-1000 grit sanding scratches.

If you're really bored here is a link to out web page:

http://southwestframeworks.com

Thanks.

[Question Boy]

If memory serves me, Meguiar's had a counterman's pad that listed different abrasive levels and what product to use after - ie., if using 1,000 grit w/d paper use "X", if using 3,000 grit w/d paper use "Y".

Sounds like this chart would be helpful here, maybe Mike Philipps can locate and post??

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Question Boy
If memory serves me, Meguiar's had a counterman's pad that listed different abrasive levels and what product to use after - i.e., if using 1,000 grit w/d paper use "X", if using 3,000 grit w/d paper use "Y".

Sounds like this chart would be helpful here, maybe Mike Phillips can locate and post??

I probably have one floating around somewhere.

As far as removing overspray as described, the M84 and M85 are Meguiar's most aggressive products in our Professional Line and are intended to be used with rotary buffers with wool and foam cutting pads.

At this time, the most aggressive product we offer for use with the dual action polisher is our M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish and it's not formulated to remove 1000 or even 1200 grit sanding marks. (It's pretty mild compared to our compounds).

We offer some more aggressive products in our Marine line, but we don't recommend them for use with automotive paints as they are very aggressive.

It sounds like you have a unique situation here when it comes to removing this overspray, or perhaps another term would be dry spray?

Does this overspray sand off easy?

Do you sanding marks buff out easy using the 3M Finesse-It II product?

What kind of pad are you using with the dual action polisher to apply the compound and what speed?

Are you following this aggressive cut with follow-up steps?

[sneek]

couldnt you use 84 and 85 with a maroon pad not just a wool pad?

[the other pc]

davydoo, That’s an awesomely cool website. Steel is real baby!

It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking the numbers on the bottles represent aggressiveness but they’re really just part numbers. They mean nothing. #26 is a wax, #85 is a compound, #4 is an aggressive cleaner (basically a compound). It’s just shorthand so you don’t need to spell out Diamond Cut Compound 2.0.

The aggressiveness is listed on the scale on the left side of the bottle:


1000 grit is awfully rough for clearcoat paint. If I were in your position I’d take sanding at least a couple steps finer. 1200 and 1500 are common in the auto paint world and that’s followed up using rotary buffers. Using a DA buffer I’d go much finer. Meg’s papers go to 3000.


PC.

[davydoo]

Hey PC, thanks! Steel is still the best all-aroud material for bike frame.

Thanks for speaking slowly. Now I think I understand the numbers. So Diamond Cut is pretty aggressive (?). Is this good to use if we sand to 1200 or 1500, or is there something better? After sanding we use a Ryobi 6 in. Orbital buffer with a terrycloth bonnet.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

[Five Star]

Originally posted by davydoo
Hey PC, thanks! Steel is still the best all-aroud material for bike frame.

Thanks for speaking slowly. Now I think I understand the numbers. So Diamond Cut is pretty aggressive (?). Is this good to use if we sand to 1200 or 1500, or is there something better? After sanding we use a Ryobi 6 in. Orbital buffer with a terrycloth bonnet.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

you buff out sand scratches with an orbital?
your the man!!

actually you'd probably want to use a rotary buffer and a wool pad using M84 or M85 to make quick work of the frames.

[SiriusRIMZ]

I know exactly what your talking about.

I'd try using some #85 with a wool cutting pad on a rotary and then evaluate your results.

Likely you'll find it hazy, then go to a foam pad on your rotary with something less mild, and maybe some polish.

I've used the 3M rubbing compound, then a hand polish to remove fuzzy clearcoat and rough clearcoat blends.

[the other pc]

#85 and most any compound meant to take out sanding scratch are intended to be used with a rotary buffer, which is a lot more aggressive than an orbital. There are 3” and 4” pads available for both rotary and orbital buffing. I wish I could remember who made it but I’ve seen an ultimately cool little pneumatic rotary polisher for 3” pads. I’ve been thinking of looking for a right angle drill to use for small pads myself.

But as Mike often says, you don’t really know what you can do until you try. Maybe you can come up with a reasonable process for the 6” orbital with a compound. You still might have to follow up with another step or two to get the best gloss.

There are too many variables, the type of paint you use, coating thickness, the gun, environment, cure time, etc to give a definitive recommendation. If I were in your place I’d make up some test samples with scrap sections of tubing or just plumbing pipe and play around.

I’m thinking that since bike tubes are all, well, tubular, you’ll get better consistency and predictability by wetsanding with a contour pad than with compounding. As such I would think that stepping through finer papers (I’m guessing at least 2000 or 2500) before buffing would give better results.


PC.



(Every so often I get this weird craving for a fillet brazed steel frame….)