#84 and the 7006 Pad - Hazing

[mklinger]

Sticking with the 'least aggressive' mantra, I polished the a roof section of my Firebird with #83/YP/4.5 with my PC. The car is black, clear coated and has some water spotting and surface scratches. This brought up a nice polish bit some defects and scratches remained. I proceeded with about 8 passes with the PC but while there was marginal improvement, the result was not what I wanted. Time to bring out the 'big iron'. Reading several posts here, I was led to using #84, 7006 Pad on a rotary. I prepped the pad with #34 and work it into the pad then applied a liberal amount of #84 so the pad would not be dry when I started. I ran the rotary on 1.5 (slow). Testing on a small area, the resulting finish was hazy and lots of fine surface scratches. The defects remain. Now, 6 more passes with #83 with the PC to get these scratches out I am back where I started.

What went wrong here? Suggestions and comments welcome.

Marc

[Pete-FWA]

Seriously, though, pictures would help.

My other comment: brand new pads take a bit to prep, especially the W7000 series. Those are some strong pads. The hazing might have been from the pad, not the product. Do you have any panel you can test the pad on before applying to the Pontiac's finish?

I've found it takes almost a whole panel's worth of space to get the pad to where I'm comfortable with its results. Did you continue to use the pad, or did you stop after the one area?

The other side of your problem could have been that you didn't work the product down far enough. If the abrasives were still large enough when you stopped the machine and wiped the product, you would be left with the hazing. Did you run the machine until the product left just a slight film on the paint?

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Well, the first thing I wonder is if you worked 84 in enough.... that could cause some of the marring and hazing you were seeing.

Secondly, did you try 83 on the rotary with an 8006 pad? I think you'd be suprised just how much more aggressive 83/8006 can be on a rotary versus a PC/G100 -- if you didn't try that. I think what I would do is go back and try the following:

1) 84/7006/Rotary
2) 83/8006/Rotary
3) 80/8006/G100(PC)
4) 82/7006/G100(PC) -- if needed

If after the 84 you still see defects (not just the hazing and slight marring, since that's normal and will go away with the 83/80 and/or 82) then bump up to either 85 with a 7006 or move to 84 with a 4006 (Cut 'n' Shine Wool Pad).

I will tell you that GM black paint (assuming this is factory paint on your F-bird) is VERY hard, and sometimes requires much more aggressive products than you might normally think to use. I've dealt with a couple different f-bodies with black paint on them before, as well as a few other GM black vehicles, and they were really a workout for the aggressive products.

I think as long as you're VERY careful not to burn anything (if you know the buffing history of this vehicle) you shouldn't have a problem getting a bit rougher with it. Sometimes the general's film builds need a bit of coercion to get the job done.

[mklinger]

Pics as requested

This stuff is tuff to photograph but...

[mklinger]

In regards to the 84...how saturated should the pad be? How long to buff an area (I am working x 24" x 24" area)? How do I know when the #84 has done its job? I am a novice when it comes to using this product so guidance is appreciated.

[mklinger]

The car was repainted about 4 years ago with PPG 2 Stage Urethane. I have not tried the #83 with Polishing Pad on the Rotary..I will pick up a Yellow pad tomorrow and give that a go. What speed would you recommend and how how long to buff.

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by mklinger
The car was repainted about 4 years ago with PPG 2 Stage Urethane. I have not tried the #83 with Polishing Pad on the Rotary..I will pick up a Yellow pad tomorrow and give that a go. What speed would you recommend and how how long to buff.

Ooh, good thing you said that. You may still have to get agressive, but I think (someone else confirm?) that PPG Urethane isn't going to be quite as hard unless it was baked on really well. At least that's USUALLY the case I've found with non-factory paint in comparison with GM factory stuff.

It also makes it easier for me to make the statement (again, someone else back me up?) that those almost look like sanding tracers from when they cut/compounded the clear. I'd definitely give the 83/8006 a try at maybe 1,250 - 1,500 RPM (I don't know what rotary you're using, but you can figure out the setting from there I'm sure), and see how it goes. Failing that, we can worry about examining your 84 process closer.

Oh, and in terms of "how long to buff," you want to get to a point where you can tell there's product left on the paint, but not much. Just don't "dry buff" or you'll instill more new swirls.

[mklinger]

Thanks for the reply. I'll give that a try and report back the results. I picked up some clean 8000 pads today to try with the 83, so we'll see how it goes

[Mike Phillips]

M84/W-7006/RB is a pretty aggressive combination for most paint defects. Besides these products you also have to remember arm speed, (how fast you move the rotary buffer of the finish, most people move it to quickly), and downward pressure, you need to apply some pressure when removing defects.

Removing defects using any tool, rotary buffer, dual action polisher, the human hands, etc., is not a simple ABC procedure, it also requires skill and experience.

If the above combination of products when used with the right technique didn't remove the defects you're trying to remove then this would be an indicator that the defects are deeper than you thought and/or the paint is very hard and not easily giving itself up.

In this case you might have to get even more aggressive for your first cut and use M85 with a wool pad.

We're not talking about Newbie procedures at this point. If you are not experienced with the rotary buffer and using aggressive products, then you don't want to be learning on something that's important to you.

Finally, after using aggressive products, you always have to move on to less aggressive products and procedures, removing defects and restoring a defect-free, swirl-free, high gloss finish is a process, not a single step and not even 2 steps however, after the second step the finish should be looking better than this...

[Mike Phillips]

The tools and techniques to add images to this forum or any forum can be found here...

How to put pictures into your posts

[mklinger]

Ok..so this evening I did the following

84/8000/Rotary@1400
83/8000/Rotary@1400
83/8006/PC
80/8006/PC
26/By Hand

I got a great result..but I still have faint water marks that are not giving up easy. At this point, I am afraid of getting more aggressive with the finish. From 2 feet away, they are non-existent but up close under the florescents they are pretty obvious. I was suprised how much the 26 hid the marks at conversational distance.

So..do I give it up here or do further battle? Suggestions?

Here's the latest result. You can still see some artifacts around the reflection from the florescents.

[mklinger]

Another shot

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Yeah those look more like pits than surface marring; I don't think I'd proceed at this point unless you can take the car to a body shop and have them put a paint thickness gauge to it. You may end up not having enough clear left if you tackle those spots, or you may fail the clear altogether. Definitely proceed with caution.

[Pete-FWA]

Your paint looks SOOO much better than it did in yesterday's photos