if i still have swirls after #83->#80->#9 i dunno what to do!

[psuvette]

i went out and bought a PC and a bottle of #83 and #80. i already had the meguiars cutting, polishing, and finishing pads to use on the PC, so I was ready to go.

My 2002 Audi A4 is black, and has severe holograms and swirling. I used my rotary buffer on them, but it didn't seem to remove them.

I went to work with the #83 all over the card with the PC on #5 with a meguiars polishing pad. That #83 sure make everything look nice!

Then I went over the car with #80 and the polishing pad. I finished with #9 on a finishing pad. 2 coats of NXT wax later, the car looked great, but I'm afraid that once the rain dries up (already raining...) that the swirls and holograms will reappear.

If that didn't get rid of the swirls, I don't know what will! Anyone want to take bets?

[Hannibal]

You are asking for help "IN CASE" your paint looks bad?? Now thats staying ahead of the game.
By the sounds of it, you probably did a good job.
Post some pics

[psuvette]

haha yea, i wasn't asking for help yet

this paint has just tried me so hard lately, that i almost expect to still see holograms! if the rain stops tomorrow, i'll let you know!

i really hope not though...but at least i have my new dual action polisher and meguiars #83 and #80, which i REALLY like!

[Accumulator]

I'm a little surprised that the rotary didn't remove the swirls and at least make the holograms better. I do most of the work on my Audis with the rotary and only use D/A type tools after things already look good.

If the marring comes back, I'd first check whether it's new or reappearing old stuff- this will be easy with regard to the holograms but maybe not so easy with regard to the swirls.

Next time, if you're worried about the marring being hidden, you could always wipe the panels down with rubbing alcohol prior to applying your LSP. The Spies Hecker paint used by Audi will not be adversely affected by the alcohol, and it will remove all the trade secret oils and anything else that might be concealing residual marring. You'll be looking at bare paint and should easily be able to determine its true condition if you use various light sources and different viewing angles.

[psuvette]

thank you for your reply.

as it stands, it looks like there are still some swirls on my paint.

It is difficult to see in the dark, but I will wipe one of the panels down with some alcohol (already knew that trick, but thanks anyway ) to see what it really looks like.

If the swirls are still there, what pad and product would you recommend to remove them? Would a rotary with the meguiars polishing pad likely do it with some #83, or should I use #80.

Or should I break out the cutting foam pad?

I must say that the oils and such made the car look fantastic, but I want to remove the swirls, not cover them up. That is not a shot at meguiars. I understand that they are there for a reason and that they work properly, but that the oils or suspension agents, whatever you want to call them, do cover up the swirls as a side effect of their actions.

[psuvette]

Accumulator:

Does it sound like the process that I used should have rid the car of swirls and holograms? I tried to cover my bases by going over the card twice with the DACP and the polishing pad on the PC set at 5, and then progress down to #80 on the polishing pad (several times depending on the area) with the PC set at 5. Then I tried to smooth everything over as best as possible by using #9 with a finishing pad. I thought for sure that would do it!

[Accumulator]

Originally posted by psuvette
Accumulator:

Does it sound like the process that I used should have rid the car of swirls and holograms? I tried to cover my bases by going over the card twice with the DACP and the polishing pad on the PC set at 5, and then progress down to #80 on the polishing pad (several times depending on the area) with the PC set at 5. Then I tried to smooth everything over as best as possible by using #9 with a finishing pad. I thought for sure that would do it!

Wasn't ignoring you; I've been out of town/offline for the TG weekend.

Let me preface my reply by saying that I don't use Meguiar's abrasive polishes on my Audis very often, but I'm still familiar enough with them that I feel OK giving the following advice.

I'd expect the rotary and the #83 to remove the bad holograms, but you might re-introduce some new (hopefully less severe) ones in the process. Using the #83 again with the PC should take care of those, I'd try that as the #80 might be a bit mild for your paint. *Then* use the #80, which should give you a ready-to-wax finish if you don't want to follow up with the #9 (which I wouldn't use on an Audi, just too mild). If ind #80 to be about as mild as is worth using on Audis. And too mild to do any really significant correction via PC.

I'd probably stick with polishing (8006) pads for the rotary work and for the PC too, except I'd *maybe* consider a 9006 finishing pad for the #9 if you use it after the #80 but IMO you'd be wasting your time- the #80 is mild enough for the final polish on this paint.

But I'd get everything as nice as I could with the rotary, using an alcohol/water mix wipe to remove any oils so you can see what's really going on. I understand what you're saying about those TS oils- I don't mind them either but on some cars I like to see what things look like without them. Make sure you break the products down fully. Do a panel at a time until you get it right. Take your time, our Audis take me a long, long time to get just right.

[Mike Phillips]

Just to chime in on this...

First lets cover the basics,

Removing, (not filling in), swirls and scratches requires removing paint. In order to remove a below the surface defects you must remove all of the paint surrounding the defect until the surface is even with the lowest depths of the defects.

This being true, then if you have used a combination of products and they have not completely removed the defects, (leveled the surface to the lowest depth of the deepest defect), then the first thing to do is to check to see if your choice of product and pad did remove the shallow scratches and thus is only leaving behind the deepest scratches.

If it is, then you can continue working with this product/pad/tool/technique combination to try to further remove the deeper scratches or you can begin to substitute more aggressive products, pads or tools.

At our Saturday classes, often times after performing defect removal demonstration and then pulling the car back out into the sun to inspect, not all the scratches or swirls will be removed.

However, almost always the majority of the more shallow swirls and scratches will have been removed. It is important that these results are pointed out because sometimes people forget what the finish looked like before and now only concentrate on what they can see, not what they cannot see, which are all the missing swirls.

After pointing this out, we then explain that the swirls and scratches that have remained are undoubtedly deeper than the ones that are now missing and that to further remove the remaining swirls and scratches means removing more paint.

At this pint we then have to point out that if the car is a daily driver and prone to having swirls and scratches instilled into the finish, then sometimes it's wiser to decide to live with some swirls and scratches instead of continuing to try to remove 100% of them because to continue to remove them means to continue to remove paint and there is a limit to how much paint you can safely remove before endangering the service life of the paint, or burning through the paint to the color coat below in the case of a clear coat finish, or the primer in the case of a non-clear coat finish.


Now if you confident in the film-build you have to work with, then you can continue to get more aggressive in your product, pad and even tool selection to further remove the deeper/deepest swirls and scratches.

Back to the beginning of my comments,

if you have used a combination of products and they have not completely removed the defects, (leveled the surface to the lowest depth of the deepest defect), then the first thing to do is to check to see if your choice of product and pad did remove the shallow scratches and thus is only leaving behind the deepest scratches.


If you are removing the shallow swirls and scratches but not the deepest swirls and scratches, it could be that in order to effectively remove these deeper swirls and scratches you will have to default to using the rotary buffer with a cutting compound and a cutting pad be it a wool or foam pad.

Even so, there are some swirls and scratches that if you were to completely remove them you may risk removing too much paint, sometimes you never know what you can do until you try. If you get lucky, well then you get lucky... if you make a mistake and go past the point of no return, well then chalk one up to the School of Hard Knocks.

What it comes down to is that in some cases, the dual action polisher will not be aggressive enough to effectively remove all swirls and scratches and factors that influence this include paint hardness, depth of the defect and of course pad/product/tool and technique.

"You never know what you can do until you try"

Hope this helps...

[psuvette]

mike,

As always, thank you very much for your reply.

I meant to update this thread with what I found out.

Again, my black 2002 Audi A4 had severe swirls that didn't seem to want to be removed with swirl remover and a rotary polisher. I decided to purchase a dual action polisher, and head to my local meguiars professional dealer to pick up some #83 and #80.

I went over the car with the polishing pad and #83 set on 5. That didn't seem to do too much once I rubbed the panel with rubbing alcohol. However, they were reduced, so I went over the panel again, and then followed it with #80.

I went over the entire car with a polishing pad and #9. After this, the car had a nice glass-like finish and I could not see any holograms. Incidently, for Audi paint, I found that #80 and a polishing pad seems to leave light holograms, whereas #9 and a polishing pad does not. Perhaps it is just the oils in the solution.

After 2 coats of wax, the car was looking great, but I could still see some swirls. As Mike says, sometime it is good to live with them. However I had some time a week later, and I thought I'd just go over the car one more time with a polishing pad and #9 set to 4. I didn't really want to remove any more paint, but #9 isn't very abrasive. After the #9 and more wax, the car looks great, and it's hard to see ANY swirls! At this point I don't care if they're filled in or removed. The point is that I can't see them!

Anyway, thanks to everyone and especially Mike for his Dual Action Polisher setting chart!

[tekygeek]

Not to get too off-topic here, but I used #80 for the first time last weekend on my car, on the PC with the polishing pad. I had the most WICKED time trying to get it off! I was using a speed of just under 4 and it seemed to dry rock hard almost instantly. The car was cool and shaded by my carport. I have never worked so hard to remove product so I was quite puzzled. I did not prep the surface with anything else, thinking the #80 was enough. Does #80 like to be used on a cleaned/prep'd surface? Or maybe my surface was just dirty enough that something more aggressive would have been better...

I was using Meguiar's microfiber towels to remove it and at times I had to push so hard to get the product off that I was flexing the metal on the hood. I thought, perhaps, if I used the PC for a little extra time on the surface that I could actually see the oxidization coming off, but I suppose it could have been the diminishing abrasives going away.

Following the exhausting #80 experience, I applied TechWax which was a breeze! The car looks stunning for a two step process, which was my goal. I didn't have a lot of time to do anything else.

-Jeff

[Hannibal]

I had the same issue with the #80 last week. I guess since it does not contain polishing oils, it makes for a drier buff. I went with the #83 and that stuff works a lot longer and works better. You could go straight to wax after #83 & PC. I opted to h and rub some #81 after the #83 though. I then topped it off with 2 coats of #16 wax.

The thing of it is, I bought a gallon of #80 and a quart of #83. I wish I would have done the reverse. WOnder if I combined the two products together, if it would make the #80 less dry to work with??

[Accumulator]

For some reason I've never had a big problem removing #80 :nixweiss Don't know what we're doing differently as I work it at 5 or 6 when using it by PC and I seem to work it pretty long (until it basically turns clear, but not longer). I hardly *ever* say this, but maybe you need to use more product.

Whenever a product like this is hard to get off, I *do not* rub harder lest I induce new marring. Rather I'll effect some sort of solvent action on it- either more of the same product or, more often, some #34. Rubbing so hard as to flex a panel is a no-no in my book.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Hannibal
I had the same issue with the #80 last week. I guess since it does not contain polishing oils, it makes for a drier buff.

Where did you get this?

All of our compounds, paint cleaners and cleaner/polishes utilize a rich, lubricating film in order to both buffer the abrading effect of our diminishing abrasives as well as create gloss, clarity and beauty.

Wonder if I combined the two products together, if it would make the #80 less dry to work with??

Something doesn't sound right here? M80 is a very wet product. One of the reasons we show it here so much during our Saturday detailing classes is because it's so completely "Bubba-Proof".

There must be something wrong with how you're using it, how much product you're using, or the product itself.

[tekygeek]

Hi Mike, I'm glad it sounds "off" because it certainly seemed strange to me. I'll be seeing my Meguiar's guy a local detailing event this saturday. I'll take the product to him just to make sure it doesn't look or feel other than however it is supposed to. It could have been the way I used it. Perhaps I was to stingy with the quantities, but I actually found that the less I used, the less brutal it was to work with. Even so it was still a total PITA.

-Jeff