German Paint

[VWAUDI]

I was reading on another site that German paints are different from American paints in that they have a softer clearcoat. Does anyone have knowledge of any differences or experience with German paints. I have a Passat that is blue anthracite metallic (dark grayish blue) and an A4 that is a dark blue metallic. The Passat has some slight swirl marks and the Audi, which I just bought used, has a significant amount of swirl marks and needs some serious care.

I have always been happy with Meguiars products. But I am now wondering if I should be using German formulated products. The products that I am considering are the Menzerna Intensive Polish and Menzerna Final Polish. If I stick with Meguiars, I am considering using the Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner on the Audi and maybe the Passat followed by #7 and then #26.

I'm trying to sort this all out and decide which products are best for both of these cars.

[Bill D]

I have an A4 and from everything I read and have experienced Audi clear is hard. MPPC got an EXTREMELY light swirl out of my paint but that was it. I recently worked on single light scratch using a PC for 45 mins I'm using 1z polishes and I have the menzerna which I havent tried on the Audi. The 1z made decent progress. As for Megs products, Id go with whatever you fancy from them as your last step product.

[fiberrich]

VW Passat Bonding Moment

Hello VWAudi!

I just read your post and wanted to let you know that I have a 2004 Passat in the exact same color as yours!

I was on a business trip about a month ago and when I pulled up to the house and the garage door opened. There it was sitting in the garage "sideways"!!! My wife bought me a new car to surprise me!!! I've got a pretty cool wife, huh?

By the way, it came from Columbus, OH. We live in SE Michigan. Not too far from where you live.

I love german cars and have a BMW 325i that I've had for years, it's a 1993, and she said it was time I had something different. I've been talking about buying a Passat for a few years now.

Anyway, back to your post. I don't have an answer for you, but I've read the same info. on one of the other auto care sites. I think they were recommending Klasse and P21/S100 along with their special "soft" pads made for German paint. So, I'm not sure if it's just a ploy to sell you on only the items they carry and if their "interviews" with German "consultants" and chemist are valid.

I see a lot people here using Mequiar's products on a lot of German cars and they look great! Are they really taking off more clear coat because German finishes are "softer"?

I don't think so, but i'm interested to hear some thoughts and feedback from some other forum members as well on this topic.

By the way, I use Meguiar's. NXT Tech Wax on that color looks great!!!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: German Paint

Originally posted by VWAUDI
I was reading on another site that German paints are different from American paints in that they have a softer clearcoat. Does anyone have knowledge of any differences or experience with German paints.

I read the same interview and I'll double check with our Director of Training because I'm sure he's up to date on current paint technology being used in most OEM's but... when I first read it, the first thing I thought was this guy is just trying to spin the paint hardness story in a way to sell more of a specific brand of products.

A couple of points and then I have to upload some Mercedes-Benz pictures...

Modern paint, i.e. clear coats for the most part, are very hard paints, no matter which paint company is making it. That has to do with the resins the paint is made from and the science behind how it cures. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but as long as quality control is in place, factory applied paints should be fairly consistent and that being the case, clear coat paint are hard, not soft.

This is one of the biggest misconception I have ever come across in the detailing world is that modern clear coat paints are soft. People think this because their clear coat finishes scratch so easily. It's easy to understand how the average person could think this way because it makes sense. But the truth is, clear coat finishes are very hard, (compared to older single-stage finish, lacquers and enamels), yet as hard as they are, the still scratch easily and are what Meguiar's calls, "Scratch-Sensitive".

Even though, if we play devils advocate and believe what the article states is true, that doesn't mean a Meguiar's Compound, Paint Cleaner, or Cleaner/Polish wouldn't be the right product for the job, in fact, it makes a case for Meguiar’s products because they are gentle to the finish in their abrading ability.

Meguiar’s compounds, paint cleaners, and cleaner/polishes all use different types of specialized diminishing abrasives that are embodied in a rich, lubricating film. This high lubricity film cushions, or buffers these diminishing abrasives in a way that allows them to remove a defect, (remove paint around a scratch for example), while preventing them from scouring the finish because,

a) The buffering film lubricates the surface during the abrading process

b) Because the diminishing abrasives breakdown, they start out aggressive and then reduce in size removing not only the defect, but any scratching they put in during the process.

This system works on both soft surfaces, like Plexiglas and lacquer paint, and hard surfaces, like single-stage white paint and catalyzed basecoat/clear coat paint systems.

I have some more information on this topic but let me first check on some things and then get back to you.

Mike

p.s.

Anyone reading this own a German car and coming to the clinic this weekend at Meguiar's for members of this forum?

May 1st - Detail Day at Meguiar's for *members* of Meguiar's Online!

If so, we test how soft your paint is and post the results back to the forum... Hands-on experience in the real world is a thousand times better than all the talk about a topic in the cyber world.

[Bill D]

I believe that article was on properautocare.com. Those I've spoken with tend to agree that green German paint pad is likely more a ploy than something innovative. Many folks have had success on German cars using the Lake Country as well as the Meguiars pads.

I also read not all German paints are soft or hard. Just recently read BMW paint is softer than Audi. I know DACP works well on Mercedes paint. I polished out a scratch on the door of a black SL using DACP and a yellow LC pad with a PC in about 5 mins. My Audi paint is an entirely different story. I'm looking into getting a "beginner" rotary and finding some cars/panel to start practicing on. Any severe scratch is definitely going to require a rotary.

[Mike Phillips]

Here's the article,

Is the paint on German cars really different?

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

I checked with Mike Pennington, our Director of Training, and he actually said that "Yes", there are some paint systems that are more scratch sensitive than others. I guess this is a way of saying that some paint systems are softer than others, but the word soft is relative.

When someone says' a paint system on a certain car is soft, it is soft... relative to what?

The jist of whether a car's finish is soft or hard takes on importance when it comes time to maintain the finish, or perform any corrective repair procedures.

If you think your car's finish is soft, because of what you have been told, what you have read, or your own experience, then it is very important to take that into consideration when choosing you,

* Application material
* Product - paint cleaner, polish, wax
* Application procedure - by hand, PC, OB, RB

The point being to follow Meguiar’s 100 year old philosophy of,

"Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

If you follow that advice, then you will already have stacked the deck in your favor for getting good results the first time no matter who's product you're using.

One more note from my own experience.

When we talk about the relativity of soft paints and hard paints, I like to think of it in these terms.

Back in the old days, if you owned a car with a single stage paint, for example a,

* 1966 Mustang with a single stage red acrylic enamel paint job, or a
* 1965 Chevy Malibu Wagon with a single stage blue acrylic enamel finish, or a
* 1957 Chevy with a green single stage acrylic lacquer finish,

If you have a scratch in any of the above paint systems, you could use a common polishing compound with piece of terry cloth towel and a little elbow grease and rub-out the scratch. You could then throw just about any company's wax on top of your work and it would look pretty good.

If you try that today, with the finish on a new car, whether it is said to be a soft paint, or hard paint, chances are extremely high, those products and those procedures will not remove the scratch and leave the finish looking good. In-fact, more than likely they will leave the finish looking scoured everywhere you worked on it.

So that's the real-world difference between a hard paint and a soft paint... can you remove the defect and restore the original clarity and gloss by hand, or must your use a machine.

As we demonstrate every weekend at the detailing clinics here at Meguiar’s and as our Professional Field Reps demonstrate every day out in the field, it's easier to remove scratches from modern paints by machine, than it is to completely remove them by hand.

Mike

[fiberrich]

Good discussion and information!

Ok, so there may be some truth in what they're saying, but I agree 100% with Mike that the hardness/softness is all relative.

It's not like the German manufacturer's would put a finish on their cars that is so poor (soft) that they wouldn't hold up over the lifetime of the vehicle. I'm sure normal wear and tear, polishing, etc. that the finish may be exposed to is taken into consideration when developing paint and finishing application techniques.

I have total confidence in Meguiar's products and also agree that if you live by the philosophy of "Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done" you will limit your chances of over doing it.

Nevertheless, I just joined this forum a few days ago and am really enjoying learning from all these discussions. It was very smart of Meguiar's to set up this site. Thanks!

Hey Mike, when is Meguiar's going to do a Detail Day here around the Motown area? Detroit's the "car capital" of the world you know!