Removing Final SM

[gtp]

This forum is great. It has given me the information I needed from all its members to help me tackle the detailing jobs I need to perform.

I used to be a 3/m user and have switched to meguiars thanks to the forum. I detailed a 98 camry with medium SM's and medium scratches and unfortunately cant get the final SM's out. Here's what I did using the G100a and 8006 pad

Washed car twice
Clay bar (did hood and doors twice)
Washed again
ScratchX some areas
#83 (#83 hood 3 times)
3/m SM Remover (sorry had it around)
#80
NXT Paste Wax (applied and removed by hand)

Before






After


While it is 90% better, you can still see some deep swirl marks in the After picture especially around the sun. What can I do to make it more professional looking? I dont own a variable buffer What can a poor G100a owner do next?

[Mike Phillips]

Without the use of a rotary, about the only thing you can do is what you've already been doing and that's to repeat the process. If you are not already working on small sections at a time, then try shrinking your work area down to about 12 to 16 inches square and really concentrate on a small area. When you have buffed this area to your satisfaction, move on to a new area but be sure to overlap into the previous area.

Take your time, move slow, work on small areas at a time. It's just a matter of removing more paint. What it looks like you've done is you've removed the shallow swirls and scratches and now all that remains are the deeper swirls and scratches.

Other than that, good job!

[gtp]

Thanks for the nice compliment Mike! 6 hours later and its much better.

At this point, I will have to invest in a rotary. I have already done 3 coats of #83 , 1 coat of SM remover, 1 coat of #80 and 1 coat of NXT using the G100a and still some deep marks are left. If you look at the After pic, what product(s) should I use next with the Rotary to get rid of those final, stubborn SM Marks?

What would have you done differently (products, buffers, steps) so I know for the next time with a car like that?

[Mike Phillips]

Darn...

I have a recommendation just for this written up in a thread, but not as a dedicated thread, so let me search for it so I don't have to re-type everything.

Two approaches,

W-7006/M84/RB or W-8006/M83/RB,

After that repeat the process you have just done to insure there are no swirls left over the rotary buffer.

There's a couple of threads on here about choosing a rotary buffer, it comes down to getting the cheapie one at Harbor Freight, or investing in a quality rotary buffer like the Makita.

[gtp]

Hi Mike - Just wanted to bring this to the top in case you forgot about me

Darn...
I have a recommendation just for this written up in a thread, but not as a dedicated thread, so let me search for it so I don't have to re-type everything.

If there is a search term I can search on, I dont mind trying to find it. Sounds like its the answer I am looking for.

Do you think if I used #84 with a 7006 pad on the G-100a, it would produce the same results as a rotary with #83? I just spent a lot of money on the meguiars buffer and would rather not have to buy another buffer - If I can help it. But will if I absolutely must to get rid of those subborn SM's

As you can see, I am excited for your answer

[Jbirk]

It looks pretty good.

Sometimes it is best to know when to stop. Imean that is a 98 Camry, so chances are good the paint is already a little bit thin.

Instead of overdoing it, maybe you should consider getting to the Wax step to hopefully conceal the remaining defects.

I gues syou can always get a rotary, but that seems like a powerful tool.

[gtp]

thanks for the nice compliment!

i really want to make this car perfect... will #84 work with the g-100a buffer and 8006 pad to get rid of those last Swirl marks?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by gtp
Hi Mike - Just wanted to bring this to the top in case you forgot about me

Thanks for reminding me, Monday's are always catch-up day, and when Monday is a Holiday, (like this last Labor Day Holiday), then Tuesday becomes a Super Catch-up Day!

If there is a search term I can search on, I don't mind trying to find it. Sounds like its the answer I am looking for.

I try to think of specific words I might use -->in<-- a thread to help me search for it but to tell you the truth, I can't think of one that would apply for the type of information I have typed up. As of right now I'm using the search terms, (as vague as they are),

step rotary because I know I listed them as step 1, step 2, step 3, etc. and I know I used the word rotary

So far I haven't found what I'm looking for, but I'll post what I've found as it does apply.

As you can see, I am excited for your answer

I'll try not to disappoint you...

[Mike Phillips]

Taken from this thread,

Can a Rotary Buffer like a Makita or DeWalt be as Idiot-proof as a PC?

Originally posted by prince_ramses
Hello,

I've been checking out some leading detailing websites like Autogeek and Classic Motoring Accessories etc., which are selling both PC's and rotary buffers.

Based on the product information, they have stated that a rotary is as safe and easy to use compared to a PC if you keep the speed below 1200 rpm?

Can I get some opinions on this.

Thanks

Their answers are kind of fluffy and feel-good for what it's worth.

Over the years I have met hundreds of people that want to learn how to machine buff, one of the things I like to share with them is that there is a lot of difference between watching someone demonstrating how to use the rotary and working a small, easy to buff section like an area on the hood, and taking a rotary buffer to the entire car.

It takes practice to get experience and to actually be good at it and it's this practice, as in buffing out many cars in order to to have the upper body strength including back, shoulders, arms and hands to call buffing with a rotary buffer just as easy as using a dual action polisher.

There is a tremendous amount of difference between demonstrating a small section on the hood of a car and buffing out the entire car.

For first timers, if it's you're own car you can always do a section at a time, for example the hood one Saturday, a fender the next Saturday, and so on...

Remember, depending on the quality you're trying to achieve, a super high quality rotary buff-out, (assuming the finish is in horrible condition to start with and needs compounding), means

• * Washing the car
  * Claying the car and wiping off the residue
  * Performing a test spot or two to dial in your system and make sure you system will work. (Alway test your product and process in a small area first to make sure you can made a small area look good before tackling the entire car.)
  
  * Taping off the car if you're so inclined. (Often times because of the number of times you're going to run the buffer over the panels of the car the potential for excess splatter in all the body seam, trim crevices, moldings, etc., you'll find it fast to tape off a car really well instead of going back over the car at the very end and digging any excess splatter out of the cracks with a toothbrush. This in part depends on your personal idea of a quality buff job as some people don't care if they leave splatter in the cracks and crevices, and some guys are so good they don't splatter at all so they don't tape off, everything depends on you)
  
  * Step 1 - Rotary buffer compounding - Then wipe off
  * Step 2 - Rotary buffer light machine cleaning. Usually with a cleaner/polish - Then wipe off
  * Step 3 - Optional Re-Polish entire car using a dual action polisher to insure all swirls are removed using the previously applied cleaner/polisher.
  
  * Step 4 - Apply first coat of wax
  * Step 5 - Optional Apply second coat of wax
  * Step 6 - Remove tape and give car a final wipe. (Assuming you taped off any trim or body seams etc...

The point is, tackling an entire car with the rotary buffer and doing a super high quality job can take the entire day. In the above example, if you did all of the steps, you will have wiped-off each panel 6 times, not including wiping off the water after washing the car), and with each step, you must focus more an more on doing your best to carefully wipe off any residue because after the second and third steps you will have, or should have removed all but the deepest scratches and you don't want to be putting any more back in as you wipe product off.

Remember, after the first two rotary buffer steps, there's a good chance you wont be as energetic as you were when your first started, that is you may be a little tired, yet you still have a long a number of steps to do.

If you're buffing out a car for a customer, you have to pretty much do it all in one day, I know a few guys the are able to spread one car out over two days and charge for both days.

If you're only working on your one car and you don't have to put the car back onto the street any time soon, you can take your time and finish the process at your leisure.

If you have to put the car back into service that day or the next day, then you can do a section at at time, performing the entire process to the section so that when you put the car back into service, the areas you have buffed are also polished and waxed.

So it's somewhat true that a rotary buffer is just as safe and easy to use as a dual action polisher in the context of holding the tool and moving it over the panel, but in the context of tackling what I call a complete, that is taking on a car that has a horrible finish and needs a multiple-step process performed starting with the compound process using a rotary buffer with the goal of producing a true show car finish, (I don't know what other full-time Professional Detailers call it), then I would say that the answer is No, a rotary buffer is not as easy to use as a dual action polisher or even an orbital buffer.

It's a lot of work to take a diamond in the rough and turn it into a glistening gemstone starting with a rotary buffer.



Swirls throughout the finish of this 1963 black Corvette Stingray



After wiping down and claying and before taping off.



Extensively taped-off. At this stage the finish had been rotary buffed twice and then wiped down in preparation for final polishing with the dual action polisher.


End results







And then it's alway nice to have 30 plus Corvette owners on hand to inspect the result in bright sunlight the next day...



By all means if you're interested in learning how to use a rotary buffer, do investigate the subject, (like you're doing here on Meguiar's' Online ), then either rent, borrow or invest in one and find a practice car to learn on!

Don't try to learn how to use a rotary buffer on a black Viper, (or insert your favorite type of car in place of the Viper). In other words, don't try to learn how to use the rotary buffer on anything that's important to you.

One more comment. The above outlined way of buffing out a car is to guarantee a 100% swirl free flawless finish in any light. This is not the norm. Most detailers and most detail shops will do a one-step rotary buff with a cleaner/wax and move on. This is because for the prices they charge, they cannot spend anymore time than necessary to make the paint shiny. Of course this means the car will be completely swirled out when viewed in bright lights. You get what you pay for and sometimes you don't even get that.

Also, most body shops don't do fancy multiple-step buff-outs let alone follow their rotary work with a dual action polisher, thus the reason you will see shops turning out work like this,



When it comes to producing or obtaining quality work, you must be educated on the subject and know the value of a dollar.

Hope this helps...

(Is this kind of detailed information available on the two websites trying to sell you the rotary buffer? Or any discussion forum for that matter?)

[Mike Phillips]

I think I found the thread I was referring to... taken from this thread, which I have moved to the Hot Topics sub-forum.

Switching from 3M to Meguiar's - Rotary Buffer Questions?

Originally posted by Solus
Hi there, well its me again guys, look i been using 3M products and they work good, i just use the Perfect-It II Rubbing compound and the swirl remover, but now i am interest on using Meguiar's and i found Fine Cut , Medium Cut and Heavy cut cleaners, which i don't know why i think are similar as Dual action cleaner/polish, compound power cleaner, and diamond cut compound.

Hi Solus,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

The questions is what is the difference between them, i mean i know fine is light compound and heavy is aggressive as dual action is light compound and diamond is the aggressive one, but why there are like 2 light compounds and 2 abrasives, is that because of different paints? like the ones of th body shops that sometimes are harder cuz of too much hardness and cheap paint, and that the stock ones are soft? Or is just preference or what would be a difference?

The primary difference is they type of diminishing abrasive they use, at least that's the difference most people would notice when using them. All of these products, M01, M02, M04, M85, M84, M83, M82, M80, can be used on either clearcoated finishes, or non-clearcoated finishes. The 80's series are more modern technology based upon Meguiar's experience formulating products used at the OEM level. I would also like to add that the formula's for the Traditional Mirror Glaze Products, M02, M04, have also been updated when technology allows. I'm not sure about M01 Medium Cut Cleaner.

Either way, both groups of products work well when used according to directions on the label and which one works best for you will be based upon your personal preferences.

I'm sure a lot of you guys have used these products would you share with me some of your experience with them? plus comments.

I think Travis has contributed a lot to this thread already, thank you Travis!

Sometimes you have to work on the Sun because theres no shade, also many compounds dry too fast cuz of the hot surface and evaporate leaving all sticky the compound on the paint, i don't know if this happens with these compounds.

There are no compounds, paint cleaners, cleaner/polishes or pure polishes manufactured by Meguiar's specifically formulated for use in direct sunlight on automotive paints. The sun, or more specifically, the heat created by sunlight will increase surface temperature of the finish and make any product more difficult to work with and affect the performance of the product dramatically. Meguiar's always recommends working on a cool surface in the shade. We understand that when doing mobile detailing work, this isn't always possible, one solution is to do what Joe of
Superior Shine Mobil Auto Detailing does and that is to use a portable canopy when working in direct sunlight.



You can check out Joe's most excellent before and after write-up on how he removed the swirls in the finish of the black BMW using Meguiar's compounds, polishes and waxes in the below thread. (If the below makeover doesn't knock your socks off, nothing will!)

BMW 745il Extreme Make-Over

Also do they hide swirl marks?

Meguiar's compounds, paint cleaners and cleaner/polishes all use Meguiar's Diminishing Abrasive Technology. When used correctly, the diminishing abrasive technology Meguiar's has pioneered since 1901 and continues to improve today, will do two things,

• 1. Remove the below surface defects, swirls, sanding marks, etchings, oxidation, etc.
  2. Remove their own marks as they reduce in size and polish out

like i like to wash the car with a sponge after compound and polish just with water to remove all the dust left by compounding and polishing, and then after that i glaze it and protect it with a pure wax or polymer.(depending on the color)

I been detailing for 2 years started with a rotary buffer burning some paints :P but well i have worked on 2 detail shops and a mobile detail, and i got some experience from there, also by doing some side jobs. I don't burn paint anymore

I would recommend reading the below two threads in the Hot Topics because they discuss in detail working what can and what cannot be done with a rotary buffer as far as creating a swirl free finish.

Need HELP! - How to avoid holograms?

How to avoid swirls and holograms?

In the end, in order to guarantee a completely swirl free finish on a dark colored paint in bright lights, you're going to need to re-polish each panel either by hand or with a dual action polisher to insure any remaining minor swirls induced by the direct drive circular contact between your pad of choice on a rotary buffer and the paint are completely removed. That, or use a coating or two of wax to insure any remaining holograms or swirls are eliminated.

Read the above two threads as there is a lot of good information in them that would not be efficient to try to re-post into this thread.

Here is one example of a selection of products you can start out with when switching over to Meguiar's from 3M. This is not you're only option, but I'm trying to keep it simple with only a few products for you to experiment with.

The M84 Compound Power Cleaner is an easy product to use with a lot of play time. It is formulated to be used with foam pads, not wool pads, so you can avoid using wool and thus avoid instilling wool fiber swirls.

The M80 Speed Glaze is a light cleaner/polish that will remove fine swirls with our W-8006 polishing pad. The key to making this product remove any leftover swirls from the M84 Compound Power Cleaner is to make sure you buff the M84 completely so that you have broken all of the diminishing abrasives down completely. This is the trick to not leaving behind any deeper swirls with Meguiar's compounds. (Don't buff to a dry buff however).

The M80 Speed Glaze is also easy to work with, offers a lot of play time, and easy to wipe off. You can then also use it with the dual action polisher to insure there are no remaining swirls. M80 Speed Glaze produces a very, very, clear and glossy finish, perfect for applying your LSP to.

Again, the below recommendations are not the only products or method of tackling every car, but it is a system that will work on most cars that you will come across and 99.9% of the time, it will produce professional results you can be proud of and your customers will love you for and recommend you to their friends.

It's also the system I used to remove the swirls on this clearcoated Corvette and restore a swirl-free, crystal clear finish.

1999 Corvette - Remove Swirls and Scratches


~~~~~~~~~


First Step Products and Process
Rotary Buffer for removing serious below surface defects,

Compound Power Cleaner
SOFTBUFFâ„¢ Cutting Pad



Second Step Products and Process
Rotary buffer for removing any residual swirls or haze left by the first step process.

Speed Glaze
Soft Buff® Foam Polishing Pads




Third Step Products and Process
Dual Action Polisher to insure a completely swirl free finish in direct sun or bright lights.

Electric Dual Action Polisher
Speed Glaze
Soft Buff® Foam Polishing Pads



At this step, use the above same products that you used with a rotary buffer in your second step process, only now substitute a different machine to apply them with. For this step, use a dual action polisher to re-polish each panel using the oscillating action of this type of machine to polish and remove any remaining swirls left by the rotary buffer to insure a completely swirl-free finish.





Last Step Products and Process
By hand or using a dual action polisher to apply your choice of wax, also known as your L.S.P., Last Step Product, this is the last product you apply and remove before standing back and saying to yourself, it is finished. Then, turn the car back over to the excited owner!

Electric Dual Action Polisher
SOFTBUFFâ„¢ Finishing Pad





Meguiar's LSP's

Here are a few options for last step products if you've performed a multiple-step process as outlined above.

NXT Generation„¢ Tech Wax



NXT Generation Tech Wax Paste



Gold Class Clear Coat Car Wax



Deep Crystal System Carnauba Wax



Hi-Tech Yellow Wax




Synthetic Sealant




Polymer Sealant



~~~~~~~~~~

This reply took a little while to write, I hope it helps...

[gtp]

thanks for excellent and lengthy write-up.. i know what to try now....

I am not worthy... I am not worthy

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by gtp
thanks for excellent and lengthy write-up.. i know what to try now....

I am not worthy... I am not worthy

Keep us posted as to your results...