what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

[joekitch]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2bkG21Uc3uSUHJyenZfWVVUbEU/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2bkG21Uc3uSaDEwTEtmMWo2SUU/view?usp=sharing

this is on the hood of a black 2003 mazda miata
this is after two passes of M105 on an orange pad, the imperfections were there before as far as i know i just didn't notice them under all the swirls and haze
it's almost like fibers embedded in the clearcoat
rubbing my finger across it, they aren't coarse at all, although i have not done the bag-test yet

they don't look like crows feet
they don't look like fisheyes
they don't look like pinholes

if anything it looks like whispy bits of unremoved polish? but it isn't

[BillE]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Really do look like 'crows feet'...in other words, clear coat fracturing.

Have the same thing on wife's Subby (2000) hood. Nothing short of a repaint will totally take care of them.

Bill

[Top Gear]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Looks like "road rash", especially considering a tiny car like a Miata and the junk trucks and other vehicles throw up. Over the years, those impacts add up. Since the scratches and swirls are still there, I'd say the foam/M105 combo isn't cutting much at all. Once those are gone, I think most of the rash will be gone as well, but for the few spots that remain, touching up tricks will be needed.

[Nick Winn]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

It is tough to completely confirm from the picture, but we would agree with BillE that is appears to be that the clear coat if starting to fail & fracture in this area, unfortunately.

[joekitch]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Alright, i have a pair of those meg microfiber cutting pads arriving today, i'll attempt to use those with M105 over two or three passes and see what the potmarks look like after that

[Nick Winn]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Alright, i have a pair of those meg microfiber cutting pads arriving today, i'll attempt to use those with M105 over two or three passes and see what the potmarks look like after that

Keep in mind that you can dramatically increase your aggressiveness just with technique on the DA alone. Many people reach for the strongest cutting pad & compound we make, when what was needed was some adjustments to technique, especially arm speed movements & pressure. Not saying this is your case, but just something to keep in mind!

[Top Gear]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Right, it's very hard to say, joekitch and Nicholas. It's also hard to know from afar if a combo is too aggressive or too weak. You'll have to figure that out on your own, unfortunately.

In my case, with hard paint, when I was doing literally dozens of careful passes at max speed and max pressure over a small area and getting no change at all, it was safe to conclude the combo was far too weak to do any meaningful correction. Weak combos also use more product, wear out more pad, take a LOT more time, and frustrate us in the process (it's supposed to be therapy!). I've found more aggressive combos make even the more usual light correcting work that much easier and faster, which makes a big difference when I'm sweating buckets outside doing this work That's all I'm saying.

Be careful, of course, but don't be fooled by polish and wax alone

[Selectchoice]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Right, it's very hard to say, joekitch and Nicholas. It's also hard to know from afar if a combo is too aggressive or too weak. You'll have to figure that out on your own, unfortunately.

In my case, with hard paint, when I was doing literally dozens of careful passes at max speed and max pressure over a small area and getting no change at all, it was safe to conclude the combo was far too weak to do any meaningful correction. Weak combos also use more product, wear out more pad, take a LOT more time, and frustrate us in the process (it's supposed to be therapy!). I've found more aggressive combos make even the more usual light correcting work that much easier and faster, which makes a big difference when I'm sweating buckets outside doing this work That's all I'm saying.

Be careful, of course, but don't be fooled by polish and wax alone

TopGear, yes, in your case working what you have determined is hard paint has shown an aggressive approach is what works best for you, your technique and your car's paint. However, if the paint is soft, or even just not rock hard paint, you can create a world of new problems you then have to chase with subsequent steps if you use some of the processes you use on your determined hard paint.

I agree with the others in that the paint does indeed look permanently damaged ie not able to be corrected by anything short of repainting, however if the OP wishes to try correcting the issue before a repaint then I'd advise the least aggressive method possible, combined with good technique.

Also Miata paint is widely accepted as being on the soft side. Not saying that's guaranteed to be the case on this example, but best to start out lightly and work up to harder products and pads if deemed necessary after the initial steps are taken.

[Top Gear]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Well, by the same token, one must not assume that all paint is soft, or spend a lot of time with weak polishing solutions because they are afraid of actually cutting. The OP used M105, which some people claim is fairly aggressive, and yet it did not even cut the swirls (look at both shots). I'd say his paint is on the hard side. Even soft paint can be corrected with M101/MF, a low speed and low pressure, and in less time than babying it with weak combos. However, it might be just as effective to back off to D300 or UC/M105. In other words, being afraid of the paint doesn't get the correction done.

[Selectchoice]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

No, indeed one must not assume anything with paint polishing as there are infinite variables at play when it comes to automotive finishes. Paint can and often does surprise with how it responds to particular products and tools.

The swirls you see in the pic look to me like RIDS and may need further work, but without seeing the paint in person neither of us have any real idea apart from guessing.

A great man told me many years ago (prefer not to count how many- but a lot of years have passed...), that if I wanted to be really good at paint correction then I should work on as many different types and styles of cars as possible to truly encounter the differences that can be encountered. And I am not rating my own ability here at all, but I listened to his words and have worked on a HUGE amount of cars in my time.

I don't make gross generalisations with regard to recommendations for the very reason that two cars painted side by side, same day, same colour can both react differently to each other for no apparent reason. With no disrespect to the OP, we don't know his/her experience level and this very well may have contributed to the experience that lead to this post.

Can starting with a heavy compound work? Maybe, but then you open yourself to having to do more steps to refine a finish that may not have needed that extra work if you'd started with a less aggressive approach to begin with. Not to mention the extra paint you have now removed from the said surface that you cannot put back on.

And all of the above of course neglects the fact this paint looks permanently damaged beyond what can be repaired by any measure short of repainting.

[BillE]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Well stated 'Select'.

Bill

[Top Gear]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Yet, that all sounds like a generalization. I'm not sure how having your experience means you somehow cannot trust a DA machine with a foam pad and any Meguiar's liquid product, which in no case would ever be aggressive enough to ruin a contemporary paint job without some crazy level of overworking. My experience shows that you'd have to go well out of your way even to get a real cut in the first place with a foam pad (cut rather than polish fooling you into thinking the paint "responded"), and if this paint were as soft as you seem to assume in your critique, those lighter defects would have been gone with the OP's two passes of M105. An older Honda or Toyota with CC failure, or a single stage lacquer job from the 70s, sure those are truly soft, but those are not under discussion in this thread. Paints today are dual stage with hardeners. That means even so-called presumably soft paints are going to take some work to correct. A 2003 Miata might have softer paint than my car, but again, whatever it is, it didn't respond to M105, hence his question here. Going on pictures alone is a moot point, since that goes for every thread you've only commented on. Otherwise, I don't see the need for going on and on about the supposed dangers of compounding when compounding with a popular compound hasn't gotten the work done yet for the OP. It's not rocket science. If a correction combo doesn't cut or otherwise satisfy, the aggression needs to go up in order to avoid spending many, many hours trying to remove something as light as swirls/spiderwebs. He could turn up the speed and pressure, but again, this is foam. If your advice in this case is to go less aggressive or keep babying it with foam/M105, then you'd have the poor guy polishing literally for days on this one spot, falsely afraid of doing damage that is impossible with the combo. In my experience, that is unwise.

[Selectchoice]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Well stated 'Select'.

Bill

Thanks Bill!

[MicrofiberMan]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Yet, that all sounds like a generalization. I'm not sure how having your experience means you somehow cannot trust a DA machine with a foam pad and any Meguiar's liquid product, which in no case would ever be aggressive enough to ruin a contemporary paint job without some crazy level of overworking. My experience shows that you'd have to go well out of your way even to get a real cut in the first place with a foam pad (cut rather than polish fooling you into thinking the paint "responded"), and if this paint were as soft as you seem to assume in your critique, those lighter defects would have been gone with the OP's two passes of M105. An older Honda or Toyota with CC failure, or a single stage lacquer job from the 70s, sure those are truly soft, but those are not under discussion in this thread. Paints today are dual stage with hardeners. That means even so-called presumably soft paints are going to take some work to correct. A 2003 Miata might have softer paint than my car, but again, whatever it is, it didn't respond to M105, hence his question here. Going on pictures alone is a moot point, since that goes for every thread you've only commented on. Otherwise, I don't see the need for going on and on about the supposed dangers of compounding when compounding with a popular compound hasn't gotten the work done yet for the OP. It's not rocket science. If a correction combo doesn't cut or otherwise satisfy, the aggression needs to go up in order to avoid spending many, many hours trying to remove something as light as swirls/spiderwebs. He could turn up the speed and pressure, but again, this is foam. If your advice in this case is to go less aggressive or keep babying it with foam/M105, then you'd have the poor guy polishing literally for days on this one spot, falsely afraid of doing damage that is impossible with the combo. In my experience, that is unwise.

whats stronger the m101/105? isnt that the strongest meguiars makes? ive def heard you refer to it as "weak" not saying it isn't just wondering what you consider strong. ive taken your advice and stopped worrying about over cutting and i got the results i wanted but all the time i spent with less aggressive product wasnt a waste for me it was learning experience, im still hoping i didnt cut to much. just the fact that i have so many chips on the hood and bumper after only two years tells me the paint is absolute chit so im hoping it doesnt fail some day

[Top Gear]

Re: what are these pore-like potmarks in my paint?

Thanks for the question. Don't group M101 and M105 together, as there's a huge difference. M105 is equivalent to Ultimate Compound, a medium-strength, trusty solution for most issues, as is Detailer D300. People will argue back and try to say M105 is stronger than UC or D300, but others have shown they are all pretty much at the same level of cut or aggressiveness. If there's any daylight between them at all, it's an academic difference found only on forums. So, UC/M105/D300 will all yield an incredibly similar but usually adequate level of cut, while D300 will finish better, and darker or wetter.

As for what's stronger than these from Meguiar's, there are two choices: M100 and M101, also in the Mirror Glaze line. These two are FAR more aggressive (but still safe), and M101 is shockingly expensive. They are closer together than they are to M105, both are full-strength compounds while still being gentle enough for regular use. With M101, it feels similar to that Soft Scrub home cleaning product, and you can feel the grit in the much thicker liquid, so it scours the surface in a way medium-strength compounds cannot, cutting amazingly well for most defects, also finishing wax-ready if need be.

That's what I've meant by "weak", regarding the others. It's not that UC/M105 or D300 won't cut on MF (again, foam is a waste of time), but that on hard paint the cut you might get takes forever to achieve, wearing you out with many, many passes, etc. Having to correct a buffer trail, for example, you'll get a great first-hand education in what kind of cut you're actually getting, because the holographic trail is extremely shallow, essentially a surface defect. So, if you're using what you think is an aggressive technique and you can't cut those, you are not really cutting anything - just polishing and powered claying, fooling yourself with the oils and finish.

However, even M100 and M101 will have their limits of cut using a DA machine and MF pads. At that point, for a truly elusive defect, either a rotary or sanding techniques are the better and faster ways to solve some problems. Since I don't yet trust rotary work to solve problems and not create buffer trails, I use sanding. Wet or dry, that will also be an education, both in terms of the actual sanding and your emotional response to it, and in terms of the compounding you'll have to do to remove the sanding marks/haze. If the haze is done right, UC/M105/D300 on MF will remove it easily, but for other sanding marks, even M101 on MF will have limits. In fact, you can make a tiny super-superficial scratch yourself with 3000 grit paper - I mean barely touching the paint such that you cannot possibly hurt anything permanently. Because the grit crystal is so sharp, it makes a harder line than would, say a tree twig that scratches the paint even at speed. Then try to compound that totally minor sandpaper scratch out. You'll see what I mean, as pass after pass shows the wholly superficial line is still there, mocking you

That's how I totally got over that beginner's fear I had of doing damage with a DA, as it's essentially impossible without a LOT of work. That is the point of the dual-action machine - it's a measured polishing that solves most problems without any real aggression at all. The trouble is when you have defects that go beyond the limits of the DA's polishing tricks.