A question?

[billd55]

Re: A question?

If you want to see what swirl marks look like that have been caused by bad washing, look at your videos.
__________________


Todd where are these swirl marks you see on the jeep and tahoe? You are like a broken record saying the same thing over and over. The Ford Expediton was done to make a point. That I can wash a 2001 with Dawn and water well after 6 months since the last application. By the way, that vehicle was not done when new.Clearly, it is not close to any before correction pic you show on your shine and show section.


What puzzles me is that you have not used this product, but you appear to be an
expert. Just because you are a moderator on truth in detailing does not make you all knowing. Also, I thought you were done with me, and were out of here.


Quote:


Why is this so hard for you to understand!!!! Swirls are scratches in the paint. Repeat that 1000x1000x10000x1000 times.

If you don't scratch the paint then the swirl marks won't be there, period (wax, sealant, coating, polymer, acrylic, whatever). Again, why is this so hard to understand?

Ok, here is a perfect example from your website of why you are wrong.

Quote from the post:

This is a friends car that the dealership trashed with a combination hand wash and wax application during the vehicle prep.


I have heard a million times that wax does not cause swirls. Well, clearly this is a brand new car, and the detailer clearly states this:the dealership trashed with a combination hand wash and wax application during the vehicle prep. No mention that
a polisher was used. You can see the wax in the crevices. Now, are you going to tell me that amount of damage was caused by a simple washing ,and it is in the clear coat . If yes, I am not buying it unless they washed it with sand paper.

Clearly, the washing smeared the wax, and it has harden. Now, if you cannot see this, you do not want to. If you think the new vehicles treated with the product I use look anything like this you need to get your eyes checked.

http://truthindetailing.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=6297

[Mike Bones]

Re: A question?

Omg... Just let this thread die already. The fact this thread hasn't been locked is puzzling to me. Clearly, everyone has agreed to disagree. There is no point to argue anymore. Especially when the OP seems to be set in his practice. We don't need to listen to him. All we have to do is respect his opinion.

Bill, you seem like a nice guy. But you also come off like that pushy financial manager at a dealership trying to sell me I need something I don't want. Just saying...

[ffboy]

Re: A question?

Hahaha, this is getting a bit crazy. But if i may just add, whatever type of detailing anyone does whether everyday consumer level hand applied or professional level requiring rotary buffers to simple wash and wax regimes to mild correcting to swirl concealing, etc, all require proper steps to get the ideal results. Swilrlmarks, scratches, imperfections will occur if any of the steps taken were done poorly. Those are the facts, nothing will change that.

If we think about it, a car's paint whether single stage or not, is thicker and a lot tougher and more durable than a coat or coats of car wax or any polymer/acrylic sealant. A bare metal panel will less likely to corrode or tarnish with a coat of paint than a coat of "miracle sealant".. So if the coat of paint (which is thicker, tougher, and more durable) will have swirls with poor maintenance techniques, what more with an even thinner, microscopic layer of wax?

I've been able to compare some sealants and waxes in terms of "swirl mark resistance", Carlack 68 twins, collinite 845, 476s, FX synwax and NXT 2.0. Carlack 68 is supposed to be the most swirl resistant, but surprise surprise... results were virtually identical.

[ffboy]

Re: A question?

How long the paint's smoothness (swirl-freeness?) and shine will last is dependent on how it is maintained. There's only so much you can do.. whatever external factors there are (environment, carelessness on some people's part, misfortune), well, sad but its a part of life.

As for achieving the results in that thread, well.. A lot of tools and products were used to get that shine, not just "THE PRODUCT" used to protect it. ANyway, guys like Mike (Phillips, Pennington, and Stoops), Paul Dalton, etc have achieved or can easily achieve equally great results with what they got.. Even with out "THE PRODUCT"

[ffboy]

Re: A question?

Oh well, what can we do..

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

We don't need to listen to him. All we have to do is respect his opinion.


Is that too much to ask for?


Quote:

But you also come off like that pushy financial manager at a dealership trying to sell me I need something I don't want. Just saying...

First, I never mentioned the product I use. Todd did. Second, Dave posted the links for the product. Third, I do not believe I asked anyone here to buy any product either.

When you make comments am I suppose stand back and just agree, or is this a forum. I have been in this business a long time, and done all types of detailing
including boats and airplanes.

You all expect me to accept what you say as fact, but question everything I say as nonsense. Personally, I have no agenda here, but to offer some info. Whether you buy or do not makes me no more or less money, but before I form an opinion about
a product I have some knowledge about it. Clearly , some people here do not share that feeling.

[Mike Bones]

Re: A question?

Quote:

We don't need to listen to him. All we have to do is respect his opinion.


Is that too much to ask for?


Quote:

But you also come off like that pushy financial manager at a dealership trying to sell me I need something I don't want. Just saying...

First, I never mentioned the product I use. Todd did. Second, Dave posted the links for the product. Third, I do not believe I asked anyone here to buy any product either.

When you make comments am I suppose stand back and just agree, or is this a forum. I have been in this business a long time, and done all types of detailing
including boats and airplanes.

You all expect me to accept what you say as fact, but question everything I say as nonsense. Personally, I have no agenda here, but to offer some info. Whether you buy or do not makes me no more or less money, but before I form an opinion about
a product I have some knowledge about it. Clearly , some people here do not share that feeling.

It's not that you're trying to sell something, though some may wonder. It's all in the tone in which you present your "argument", so to speak. Then you go on the defensive, spouting off your work, years of experience etc. It comes across as arrogance, in my opinion.

[TH0001]

Re: A question?

Todd where are these swirl marks you see on the jeep and tahoe? You are like a broken record saying the same thing over and over. The Ford Expediton was done to make a point. That I can wash a 2001 with Dawn and water well after 6 months since the last application. By the way, that vehicle was not done when new.Clearly, it is not close to any before correction pic you show on your shine and show section.

Okay Bill, I am going to respond to you again, please don't ignore this. On the video of the Lexus (the one where you are constantly stating there are no swirl marks) you walk around the trunk of the car. This is FIRST time in the video that the sun is not hidden by clouds.

The trunk is very badly swirled, and what makes this worse is it is hard to see swirl marks on a red metallic car. This means that this car is really swirled up. You can see this at approximately 2:10 seconds - 2:20 on your video.

Here is the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTTG6...eature=related

At approximately 2:23 of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Kdr...eature=related you can see a TON of swirl marks on black part of the Explorer. Now granted you cannot see the swirls in the green pearl flake paint in the video, but the black shows the condition of this paint.

I am a broken record of truth.

What puzzles me is that you have not used this product, but you appear to be an
expert. Just because you are a moderator on truth in detailing does not make you all knowing. Also, I thought you were done with me, and were out of here.

I agree on both points. Me being a moderator means nothing, as much as your 17 years of detailing (and failure to understand swirl mark SCRATCHES) means nothing. I would rather judge us solely on the accuracy of the information we provide.

But since you like to use the 'trump' card that I haven't used this product, perhaps you can tell me specifically what products you have tested your product against. You cannot have it both ways.

Ok, here is a perfect example from your website of why you are wrong.


This is a friends car that the dealership trashed with a combination hand wash and wax application during the vehicle prep.

No Bill, it is an example of why you are wrong. In fact it is just a further example of how little you understand. Think of guns. Guns don't kill people, people with gun's kill people. The wax didn't cause swirl marks, the person who applied it with a dirty rag did. Same thing with the guy who washed the car (likely with a dirty mitt and dried with a stiff dirty towel did).

I have heard a million times that wax does not cause swirls. Well, clearly this is a brand new car, and the detailer clearly states this:the dealership trashed with a combination hand wash and wax application during the vehicle prep. No mention that
a polisher was used. You can see the wax in the crevices.

Maybe you could enlighten me as to how something that is not abrasive (wax) can cause scratches? What you have heard a million times is correct. What caused the HEAVY swirl mark damage to the lexus that you state does not have swirl marks (which are clearly visible?).

Now, are you going to tell me that amount of damage was caused by a simple washing ,and it is in the clear coat . If yes, I am not buying it unless they washed it with sand paper.

It's too bad you are not buying it because its true. Of course your going to tell me that a non-abrasive wax has damaged the clear coat (lol).

Clearly, the washing smeared the wax, and it has harden. Now, if you cannot see this, you do not want to. If you think the new vehicles treated with the product I use look anything like this you need to get your eyes checked.

Yes, I saw the Lexus. That is what it looks like, and I don't need my eyes checked. If the swirl marks were in the wax (as you claim in your ignorance and complete lack of knowledge on the subject) then removing the wax would remove the damage. It makes you wonder why the swirl marks are still visible (after all those years) in on the Lexus you have worked on.

[TH0001]

Re: A question?

In Florida we are allowed to make U-turns on green arrows. So I get the green arrow and make my legal U-turn. This lady is to my left (making a right on red) and completely cuts me off, then gives me this dirty look like its my fault that I am proceeding legally at a green light and she (who is supposed to yield) is making a turn on a red light.

It reminded me of this thread.

[ffboy]

Re: A question?

Just post the pics of your car you treated with "THE PRODUCT" instead of presenting yourself as a someone asking questions and turning everything about an argument about your Product you seem to be presenting as God's greatest gift to mankind.

Try putting up your website instead of using this forum to "present" your product.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Todd

This is a brand new BMW(2011) in this post. The detailer clearly states the dealership
applied a hand coat of wax, and a hand wash.


Quote:

Maybe you could enlighten me as to how something that is not abrasive (wax) can cause scratches?


Well if wax is not abrasive, then what caused the scratches that are clearly all over the finish? A polisher was not used, so no abrasives were used. There is no doubt
wax was not applied here, so what else could it be but the wax has smeared causing
these scratches to appear.

It makes no logically sense that a hand wash would cause this type of scratches in the clearcoat no matter how soft the paint is. Clearly, IMO the washings and the use
of the claybar has not totally removed the wax, but only distorted the top of the wax layer causing these scratches. Which goes back to the reason of this post in the first place.


The reason I am aware of this is because I have never had this problem when using the product I use. The reason I posted the way I did was to see how people here would answer the question. Maybe they will see why swirl marks occur in some cases, and realize that wax can distort when washed causing these scratches
to appear. That is why I say not all scratches are in the clearcoat.

In this post, the detailer is using compound to remove these scratches, but IMO he is not removing them from the clearcoat. The compound is just removing the wax buildup that has dried off the clear coat.

He states it required 36 hours of work to restore this brand new car back to what it should look like.Now did the washing cause this problem, or the wax that was applied? If the dealership would have not applied the wax all this work and money spent would not have been required. Plus I can almost bet that wax was used as
the final step again, so do you see where I am going with this train of thought.


Quote:

perhaps you can tell me specifically what products you have tested your product against. You cannot have it both ways.


That is a fair question. Basically, wax is wax. I have seen many articles showing that
there is really very little difference between a expensive one and cheap one but
marketing hype. Basically, all wax does is provides short term shine and beading.
Granted, it does provide a barrier, but in no way does it prevent damage.

What do poly sealants offer? Better durability to washing off . That is about it.
Products with polycharger do offer better protection through cross linking, but they do not bond to the clear coat. Also, wax is needed to get a better shine.

Now I know very well what the product I use does. In all cases it exceeds by far
anything these products have to offer. You can call it god's gift, a miracle product,
or marketing hype, but until you use it you can only relate to what you know.


Quote:

Now granted you cannot see the swirls in the green pearl flake paint in the video, but the black shows the condition of this paint.

First, this is a 2001. Second, considering it was washed with Dawn and well water followed by wiping down with a towel . Also, it had been six months from the last application. It sure looks nothing like that 2011 black BMW when washed.


Quote:

The trunk is very badly swirled, and what makes this worse is it is hard to see swirl marks on a red metallic car. This means that this car is really swirled up

I am sorry but this comment makes no sense. How is it you can see the swirls on the
trunk, but not on other parts of the car and say the whole car is swirled up? The hood is in the same light, but no swirls there?


You did not mention one thing about the Jeep and Tahoe video? Why not?

[Mike Bones]

Re: A question?

I am now thoroughly convinced you can't see swirl marks.

Todd's post clearly says that the reason swirls were induced on that BMW, was because of how it was applied i.e. Dirty rag to apply wax, dirty towel to buff off.

The red IS-F is cleary swirled on the trunk from a similar wash method. Just look at the video. Stop it at 2:10-15. The clear is all swirled because of a wash technique.

[gsx62391]

Re: A question?

Obviously you have more faith in the dealerships method of washing cars than you should. I have worked at dealerships and i can tell you the people that are hired to wash and so called " detail" the cars are not professionals. In most cases, they are high school or early college kids getting paid a low hourly rate. And can you tell me why the dealership would need to apply a coat of wax on a so called brand new perfect paint? Its because they are trying to hide all the damage they did when washing it from the customer and wax is the cheapest and quickest way to go. They sell the car looking good, the wax wears off and then you really see what the paint looks like. And by you trying to prove something by washing the vehicles with dawn is pointless. We know that Dawn will remove any wax on the car but we also know that it cannot remove a polymer sealant, acrylic, or PTFE.
The reason why there are only some areas on the video that we can see swirl is because it has to have the light source directly reflected off of the surface. to see it. You either have a poor technique for filming this, or you are purposely keeping the light source out of the frame. The trunk of the lexus is the only time you can see the sun reflecting off the paint which is why its the only place we can see it. I don't think you are ignorant of this fact. So instead of argueing with everyone about information that you already know ( which makes you seem like you have no idea what your talking about) show us a comparison of before and after, show us a video filmed with the proper angles to show that there is no swirl. Then you will will make us more of a believer and your work and product would actually speak for itself. Thats all we want. Proof.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

Todd's post clearly says that the reason swirls were induced on that BMW, was because of how it was applied i.e. Dirty rag to apply wax, dirty towel to buff off.


Since Todd was not there, that is pure assumption on Todd's part. Was the BMW
swirled before the waxing? No. Wax does not cause swirl marks! I have only heard that one a million times also. Once again, it is pure assumption that a dirty rag was used and caused the scratches.

It clearly states the waxing and washing were by hand.It is not likely that a dirty rag
could have produced these scratches into the clear coat.


Quote:

The red IS-F is cleary swirled on the trunk from a similar wash method. Just look at the video. Stop it at 2:10-15. The clear is all swirled because of a wash technique.

You are wrong . Why ? Because in that video the red lexus had been treated with the
product. Also, if my wash technique is the reason for the swirls on the trunk, then why does the rest of the car not show the same thing? Lastly, where are the swirls
on the jeep and tahoe? I show the washing with Dawn soap, so where are the swirls
if the washing technique is the reason?

[PhantomMagician]

Re: A question?

I've told you that he can't, or don't know what swirl marks are..

Just a suggestion, why don't you, instead of debating here, Just go and attending some meguiar's classes... there will be great teacher to teach...

Wax with no abrasive cannot cause swirl mark of course, but the PERSON who applied the wax, absolutely CAN ... with wrong technique or dirty or wrong pad...