M105 with rotary trouble

[TH0001]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

Hi Todd,

I was out in the garage when you posted, but after reading your post, I agree with you that 83 seemed to be a much better polish for this older and weathered paint. After I switched over to 83 there was night and day difference in how the rotary handled.

Thanks

Glad it worked out well for you!

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

Hopefully on your next project that you think might benefit from the strength of M105 you'll reach for it. Odds are it won't behave like this for you again for a very long time. As stated previously, that dang Ferrari was the one and only time I have personally experienced this, and having other products in the bag that day made life a whole lot easier.

No worries there. I will definitely be using M105 again in the future. I have used it on 2 prior projects and it worked great.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

Mister B, what you're experiencing is why Meguiar's makes so many different paint cleaners and compounds. If one product worked equally well on every paint system there would be no need to do this. As you've experienced, there is gumming and there is gumming! But as Todd stated, this is not a knock against M105, just as the fact that one would likely struggle to remove 1000 grit sanding marks on fresh paint with M83 is not a knock against M83.

Hopefully on your next project that you think might benefit from the strength of M105 you'll reach for it. Odds are it won't behave like this for you again for a very long time. As stated previously, that dang Ferrari was the one and only time I have personally experienced this, and having other products in the bag that day made life a whole lot easier.

If you read through some of the highly detailed posts that Todd and guys like Kickin Griffen put together, you'll often see them comment on a favorite product not behaving quite the way they expect it to, or want it to, on a given paint system. These guys have tons of experience and are prepared for anything bizarre that might be thrown at them. They are very adept at thinking on their feet, but that really only comes with a lot of experience.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

I should have took a picture of the fender before I started any work on it. When my neighbor gave it to me, the top of the fender was covered in mildew. I sprayed some Amazing Roll Off onto it and cleaned all the mildew off with that before I clayed it and began any rotary polishing.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

For Mister B, there are some paints that just do not respond well to certain products and certain techniques. What may work on one, may not on the other. On some paints, the oxidation and other factors may make the paint sticky, causing the rotary to bounce. One way to overcome that is to apply and remove a coat of M03 Machine Glaze of M07 Show Car Glaze before using the rotary polisher. The TS Oils from the pure polish will help to lubricate the surface to a limited degree but it will in fact make it much easier to use a rotary on.

Try the above and if you are still having trouble, then try switching to a different pad (different cut level) or a product like M95. Give the above a try and report back!

Tim

Hi Tim,

I did not have any M03 or M07, so I applied some M81 hand polish first. It did make it a little bit easier, but it still ended up getting real sticky, so I switched over to 83 on a cutting pad and it worked so much better.

Like you and a couple others have stated, some paints just do not respond well to certain products and that seemed to be the case here.

Thanks.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

In most cases it is better to switch to a wetter, more forgiving polish that can better handle the loads of abraded paint with less performance loss. M205 would be a great polish for this as it is not very finicky and is very durable. Meguiar's old M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish is another one that springs to mind for being able to clean off weathered paint.

Hi Todd,

I was out in the garage when you posted, but after reading your post, I agree with you that 83 seemed to be a much better polish for this older and weathered paint. After I switched over to 83 there was night and day difference in how the rotary handled.

Thanks

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

I was just out in the garage for a couple of hours playing with M105 and the wool pad with different techniques. The best I could get it to work was at slow speed and light pressure and that was only for a very short time before it would start gettng really sticky again..

Also after looking at the fender closer it appeared that it had been repainted at one time, which may have been another factor in the way that 105 was working. The finish was coming out nice, but the stickiness and how difficult the residue was to remove made me decide to stop and switch to a foam cutting pad and 83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. What a night and day difference in how smooth the rotary buffer ran. I could buff for much longer and it was much smoother. The residue removed a lot easier as well. So I stuck with 83 and the cutting pad on the rotary and then followed up wit 80 and a polishing pad on the rotary and then 80 on a polishing pad on the G100.

The bottom section of the fender was my test area, and after i figured out the combination that worked best for me i finished the bottom section and then I ran a strip of tape on the top section above the molding so I could show the 50/50 comparison shot.

Here are the results on the fender. You can tell it was pretty oxidized. The paint was actually pretty soft also. Probably from the repaint.

[TH0001]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

I'm going to agree with Tim and Chris on this one. While there are some causes of product gumming that additional pressure could possibly fix, in your case this might be a bad suggestion. It takes time, skill, and experience to really learn the way a rotary reacts and to learn to control it like an extension of your arm.

As Mr. Stoops said, there are certain and conditions that don't work with certain polishes. This is not a knock on the polish, but rather a factor of the infinite amount of variables you as you polish in a dynamic environment. What type of paint was it? How old is it? How much has the paint weathered or how healthy is the paint? What products have been used to maintain it through out its life? Have chemicals leached into the paint? The list goes on an on, each injecting another variable into the equation, with out even considering the person doing the polishing, his technique and experience, the type of machine, the speed of the machine, the pad being used, the environmental conditions, and the type of polish.... Quantum Detailing Physics 101.

So M105 isn't working on this paint, and if I read the thread continue, you would like to make it work. So let's eliminate what I have experience as common problems and see if we can get it too work (understanding that it might not based on Quantum Detailing Physics 101).

Older paints can be weathered and more absorbent then newer paints, so it is possible that you are dealing with some type of contamination that is either on the surface or slightly into the surface that needs to be removed.

Wash the panel thoroughly and use a heavy alkaline soap to really clean it. You can use a strong dilution of Meguiar's APC or a lighter dilution of Meguiar's Super Degreaser. I have one extremely regarded detailer friend who uses Spray 9 degreaser straight. Rinse the residue off. Keep in mind that I am not recommending you do this on a brand new Aston Martin, but rather in context of this panel which is a junker.

If the weathered paint has allowed products to absorb slightly then you are going to have to remove the affected thickness of the paint (perhaps by using an alternative polish that and a cutting pad for a pass or two).

Keep in mind that highly weather paint tends (in my experience) to be far softer then healthy and undamaged paint, so even if you are not getting a chemical reaction, the weathered paint itself can be a cause of the problem.

A polish is really just abrasives in a carrier/lubricant. Obviously far more complicated. Think of this like muddy water in a bucket. As the surface is polished, paint is being removed (and if it is weather it could be removed quickly). If the weathered layer of paint itself is being removed and is gummy it is like pouring more dirt into the muddy water. Add enough dirt and the muddy water becomes almost dry.

M105 can be finicky on weathered paints, and I believe this is because of how quickly the abrasives remove the damaged paint, which clogs up the process.

In most cases it is better to switch to a wetter, more forgiving polish that can better handle the loads of abraded paint with less performance loss. M205 would be a great polish for this as it is not very finicky and is very durable. Meguiar's old M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish is another one that springs to mind for being able to clean off weathered paint.

You may find that one or two passes over the paint with a different polish will clean the paint enough to allow M105 to work better (if you still need additional polishing power).

To use M105 here is how I would do it. Prime the wool pad with just product. Work M105 around the wool fibers with your hands and kind of scrunch it together like you are putting gel in your hair. Let the product sit on the pad for several minutes then attach to your rotary.

Run the buffer at low speed and use a towel to scrub against the spinning surface and remove any excessive product.

Draw a very small bead of product on the paint, about 3 inch line. Begin polishing at 1000-1200 rpm. Don't use excessive pressure but rather enough to compress the wool. Keep your speed at 1000-1200 and work back and forth evenly (not fast, not slow, just smoothly).

When the product begins dry out or gum up, lightly mist the surface with 1/2 squirt of water and continue polishing. You should get more cut (and hopefully shed some of the weathered abraded paint). Work smoothly until the water starts to dry the remove residue completely with a towel.

I think you will find that this will allow you too get very good correction with M105 and really clean the paint. If you have to make a second pass over the area I would repeat using the same process.

Again it might be ideal to use a different polish, but with a little tweaking with this technique might overcome some of the possible causes of the reaction you are getting and leave a very nice finish in the process.

I would also strongly disagree with the statement that this is a common problem with M105 as people who I constantly talk to that have experience using M105 frequently find it to be about on par with other polishes in terms of having wierd reactions. It is the power of internet-perception, where ten people have an issue and start ten different threads, then post in each others threads about having the same issue while 1000s of people are out using it and getting great results.

M105 can act funny on some paints, and on some paints it will not work but it isn't common, at least not with the experienced people that I speak with.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

I would not increase the speed or increase the pressure. The combination of the two can create some serious problems. By adding speed and pressure, you are fighting the machine and will remove more paint than necessary and add heat. This can also cause M105 and wool fibers to pack together and leave some severe swirls.

Agreed. Usually, when someone is very new to the rotary, they increase the power and downward pressure in order to overcome the loss of control they are having. It takes a long time to get the feel of the rotary and while some pads are indeed easier to use, it is operator error that leads to the vast majority of problems...

For Mister B, there are some paints that just do not respond well to certain products and certain techniques. What may work on one, may not on the other. On some paints, the oxidation and other factors may make the paint sticky, causing the rotary to bounce. One way to overcome that is to apply and remove a coat of M03 Machine Glaze of M07 Show Car Glaze before using the rotary polisher. The TS Oils from the pure polish will help to lubricate the surface to a limited degree but it will in fact make it much easier to use a rotary on. In some cases, it may be necessary to lightly mist the surface with M34 Final Inspection (leaving it on the surface wet) and then start rotary polishing. However, this will cause some spray, so protect areas accordingly. Sometimes a paint needs more product, less product etc. Over working a product can make it gummy and so can using it with an over-saturated pad.

If a product becomes gummy, the old expression of like dissolves like is needed. Just apply a little more of the M105 and it will remove the gummed up product easily. M34 Final Inspection will also remove it easily. Again, this is usually caused by using too much product and or the wrong speed; usually too high of speed.

In the end, it comes down to practice and more practice along with learning the little tricks that helps one deal with difficult paints. I did a new Volvo a while back and it was a serious pain to detail while others have found other Volvo models easy to work with. So again, it depends on that particular car and paint.

Try the above and if you are still having trouble, then try switching to a different pad (different cut level) or a product like M95. Give the above a try and report back!

Tim

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

How much has the pad been used?

The pad is brand new. I only used it on my riding mower hood one time before getting this fender off of my neighbor. I then washed the pad by hand, let it dry and then a few days later started on this fender.

How much product are you using when first starting?

I primed the pad with a couple sprays of #34 and then laid down a 6" bead of 105 and then started form there. Buffed for maybe 30 seconds (if that) and then laid down another 6" bead. After that I started spurring the pad after every pass or 2 but still had the same problem I started with, so I stopped.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to try and get out there again in the next couple days and experiment with some of the suggestions that I received here.

[PorscheGuy997]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

How do you clean your wool pad after every pass? I was just using the metal spur on it.

Spurring is fine. After a while, switch to a fresh pad or clean it with a System 2k or Grit Guard pad washer.

How much has the pad been used? You never want to have too much spent product in the pad. Also, wool pads do wear out. A worn out wool pad will be noticeably smaller in diameter than a new pad.

How much product are you using when first starting? The pad will often absorb some of the product and it is perfectly normal to pick up another bead and continue buffing.

Putting more pressure on the pad also helps. Increasing machine speed will also reduce grabbing.

I would not increase the speed or increase the pressure. The combination of the two can create some serious problems. By adding speed and pressure, you are fighting the machine and will remove more paint than necessary and add heat. This can also cause M105 and wool fibers to pack together and leave some severe swirls.

[the_invisible]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

Pad grabbing and hopping with M105 are extremely common if you do a search. I experienced the same thing when I was buffing out my car. I quickly did a google search and found the solution. I primed the solo pad with something like final inspection and M105 to reduce grabbing. Putting more pressure on the pad also helps. Increasing machine speed will also reduce grabbing. I wouldn't move the pad "slowly" in an attempt to reduce gumming as that may generate too much heat. In fact, for me, moving the pad too slowly was the apparent cause for gumming. Your result may vary, however.

If grabbing still persists, I suggest you grab some LC purple foamed wool pads. It offers slightly less cutting power, but it finishes just as well as the Lake Country orange pad. These pads completely eliminate grabbing and hopping, and they produce extremely little heat. These are the wool pads to learn rotary on.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

How hot was the panel?

The panel was cold. It was in the 50's inside the garage and I was not using any halogens. After a few passes over one section of the panel, it was barely warm in that spot. I was using barely any pressure because it was grabbing so much.

Just to be safe, I would also clean the pad after every pass.

How do you clean your wool pad after every pass? I was just using the metal spur on it.

[PorscheGuy997]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

It sounds like a few things are going on here.

First, I would try priming the pad with M105 (same as doing the KBM) and then pick up a much smaller bead of product. Sometimes, too much product will cause M105 to adhere to the paint.

How hot was the panel? M105 does not like heat. If you have a set of halogens near the paint, it will cause M105 to dry up quickly.

Just to be safe, I would also clean the pad after every pass.

If the paint still isn't polishing well, there are still more options. You could switch to a less aggressive pad. Or, you could prime the pad with M205 and pick up a bead of M205. This is not recommended, but I have had great results with this combination. The longer working time of M205 allows you polish tricky paint much easier than just M105 alone. Yes, you lose some of the cutting of M105, but it does finish very well.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

If you are getting the "glazed" effect with the M105 you may be working it too fast, too long, or moving the pad around too quickly and not letting the product work and break down.

Moving the rotary around too quickly with a higher rotary speed is a common way to get that hard-to-remove M105 residue.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think I worked it around too quicky. I mean the area of the fender I worked on was only 12" or 14" square. I did not work it very long at all either because it would just constantly grab and grab, not smooth buffing at all, very sticky. I also tried it at several speeds, slow and medium speed with the same results.